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Equal Dignity of Women and Men in Creation

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RE: Equal Dignity of Women and Men in Creation 2008/07/20 02:41:48 (permalink)
And I am completely stumped as to why people attack those who ask intelligent questions?
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RE: Equal Dignity of Women and Men in Creation 2008/07/20 02:43:33 (permalink)
If infallibility is used as the last resort to reduce counter arguments to silence, the power factor raises its head. The oath of loyalty required of priests and theologians obliges them to submit to the so-called definitive Roman doctrinal pronouncements (cf. ‘Ad Tuendam Fidem’, 1998). Who, for example, publicly advocates the ordination of women, is guilty of breach of oath, and punishable for this. This gives theology features of ideology. The truth is caught in the trap of power.

 
well said.
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RE: Equal Dignity of Women and Men in Creation 2008/07/20 02:45:02 (permalink)
Rome does not allow inclusive language in liturgical texts (e.g. the persons of the Holy Trinity can only be referred to with masculine pronouns). Ironically, it is consistent that the Letter does not criticize sexist language, which after all is an elementary form of discrimination.

 
YES!
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RE: Equal Dignity of Women and Men in Creation 2008/07/20 03:56:57 (permalink)
A copy of van Eyden's thoughtful article is here: http://www.womenpriests.org/theology/eyden3.asp 

 
This article by van Eyden is excellent.  Thank you for providing it.

 
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RE: Equal Dignity of Women and Men in Creation 2008/07/20 15:23:51 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: Hans

The section in Pope John Paul II's encyclical 'Mulieris Dignitatem' that will be discussed in this sub-forum can be found here: Equal dignity of men and women in creation.

This is a taste of what the Pope says:


‘He shall rule over you.’ This "domination" indicates the disturbance and loss of the stability of that fundamental equality which the man and the woman possess in the "unity of the two:" And this is especially to the disadvantage of the woman, whereas only the equality resulting from their dignity as persons can give to their mutual relationship the character of an authentic "communio personarum." While the violation of this equality, which is both a gift and right deriving from God the Creator, involves and element to the disadvantage of the woman, at the same time it also diminishes the true dignity of man. Here we touch upon an extremely sensitive point in the dimension of that "ethos" which was originally inscribed by the Creator in the very creation of both of them in his own image and likeness. (Mulieris Dignitatem § 10)


Please, read the whole section!

John Wijngaards

 
 
Sounds to me that the Holy Father is talking about the very instability that exists in the Church.
 
If the priesthood represents Christ -- the groom, the man -- and the laity represents the Church which is feminine -- the bride, the woman -- then currently we have a situation where the 'he' is ruling over the 'she.'
 
 
Just as Pope John Paul Ii points out, "This "domination" indicates the disturbance and loss of the stability of that fundamental equality which the man and the woman possess in the "unity of the two:" And this is especially to the disadvantage of the woman, whereas only the equality resulting from their dignity as persons can give to their mutual relationship the character of an authentic "communio personarum."
 
 
It is scandalous that the heirarchy equates itself with Christ and says the rest of us are not icons of Christ.  In doing this, the heirarchy assumes its own equality with Christ and teaches that none of us can be priests because we are not icons of him.
 
Scandalous.  Unorthodox. It is wrong.
 
 
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RE: Equal Dignity of Women and Men in Creation 2008/07/20 15:39:02 (permalink)
If John Paul II says that any form of male domination is to be rejected, then why aren't women included in the College of Cardinals, the episcopacy and the priesthood?
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RE: Equal Dignity of Women and Men in Creation 2008/07/21 03:40:28 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: Guest

A historic event was the address which cardinal Flahiff of Winnipeg held at the Bishops’ Synod of 1971. At the request of the catholic women’s organisations in Canada he proposed that Rome set up an international study commission which, in the light of the ‘signs of the times’, was to examine the position of women in the church and especially the possibility of their ordination. The issue now having been raised publicly and with worldwide applause, Rome could no longer ignore it. The way in which this International Study Commission (1973-1976) was continuously manipulated by Vatican authorities is very characteristic of the Roman strategy of control. A secret memorandum limited its task: it should start from the specific role of women and the complementarity of men and women, and it was not allowed to take up a study on the ordination of women. How this Commission was composed and presided over, and how five women members - among them Marina Lessa, from Brasil -bravely opposed indoctrination, was recorded by Dirkje Donders in her theological thesis ‘La Voz tenaz de las mujeres’ (Nimega, Paises Bajos, 1997). The hopeful expectations of women in the catholic world ended in deep disappointment and indignation about the course and the results of this Roman Commission. The Commission’s debacle made the pope draw two conclusions: Rome would have to work out a specific anthropology of manhood and womanhood and, as soon as possible, offer a clear statement about the impossibility of the ordination of women.


Where can I get more information about this Commission?



Dear friend,

An analysis of the Commission is included in one of the documents from our library.  The direct link is here: http://www.womenpriests.org/teaching/donders3.pdf#page=1

By way of background, the Commission -- which is known as the 1973 Special Commission To Study The Function of Women in Society and the Church -- was borne as a result of points raised by courageous bishops participating in 1971 Synod of Bishops.  The agenda for this assembly (which was the second in the history of the Synod of Bishops*) consisted of two topics:
  • Ministerial Priesthood
  • Justice in the World.

Even though the ordination of women was not on the original agenda, a Cardinal and several Bishops in attendance creatively managed to see the Synod give world-wide coverage to a lively discussion on woman in civil and ecclesiastical society.

During the discussion of the Relatio on Ministerial Priesthood, the Canadian Conference of Catholic Bishops' Archbishop Plourde called attention to the omission of priestly ministries for women. Canada's Cardinal George Flahiff of Winnipeg then spoke classifing as 'sociological rather than theological' the interpretations of scripture which have traditionally stood in the way of the ordination of woman to priesthood.  In other words, he publicly said that from his point of view, there was no fundamental doctrinal argument against the ordination of women (a view upheld by Jesuit theologian Karl Rahner.)

During the debate on Justice and Peace, Archbishop Leo C. Byrne intervened on the part of the American hierarchy to denounce all discrimination against woman in civil and ecclesiastical law and custom.

Through Cardinal Flahiff, the Canadian Bishops’ Conference formally asked the Vatican to open discussion on the admission of women to all ministries. Flahiff courageously urged the Pope to establish an international mixed commission to study the role of women with an openness to the question of the admission of women to all ministries -- including priesthood!

Others concurred.

Seconding Cardinal Flahiff’s recommendation, the chairman of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops' Ad Hoc Committee on the Status of Women in the Church and Society, Archbishop Byrne made strong appeal to local episcopal conferences. To achieve justice in the Church regarding women he proposed:
  • that every conference undertake serious studies of national culture, church law and practice, to eliminate all forms of infringement on women’’s rights in civil and ecclesiastical life
  • that the Church recognize the dignity of woman and her Christian self-understanding In its attitudes toward sex, marriage, family planning, etc.
  • that the Church seek to give woman greater representation and more meaningful participation in the liturgy, Church activities and organizations, etc.


    In her Forward to Women in Ministry: A Sisters' View, National Assembly of Women Religious, Chicago, 1972, pp. 9-18, Sister Ethne Kennedy observes about these events:




    The Canadian request was timely from point of view of the Church’s rank-and-file members. That is: the ordinary faithful, carriers of inerrancy according to Vatican II. However, from a Church political point of view, the timing could not have been worse. Conservative forces were reorganising themselves under the leadership - you have guessed it! - of Cardinal Ottaviani.** These could not possibly conceive of a change so fundamental as women entering holy orders. Absurd!

    But the Vatican authorities went through the motions. A special commission was set up to study the Function of Women in Society and the Church (1973). The Biblical Commission was asked to look at the question from a scriptural angle. It would all work out, they were sure.

    Imagine their surprise and panic when support for women as priests welled up spontaneously in many official bodies. The Vatican acted immediately to stamp out such signs of rebellion. The commission on the Function of Women was directed not to discuss women's ministries, even though this had been the reason why it was set up.

    Dissenting voices (1974 - 1975) were suppressed as we know from the records of Rie Vendrik, a Dutch representative. (Dirkje Donders, The Tenacious Voice of Women. Rie Vendrik and the Pontifical Commission On Women in Society and in the Church, Utrecht 2002.

    [see from our library: The Changing World of Women: 1972 - http://www.womenpriests.org/classic2/kennedy.asp]


    In other words, because of internal curial manipulations, the commission was a flop.  The document from our library which provides an analysis of the Commission (http://www.womenpriests.org/teaching/donders3.pdf#page=1) records the following about its actual beginnings:




    An announcement was made in Pope Paul VI's name by Msgr. M. Uylenbroeck, in the presence of Pilar Bellosillo, from the Vatican Pressroom on May 3, 1973 (almost 18 months after the end of the Bishops' Synod) to appoint a Special Commission on the Function of Women in Society and in the Church.  It was to be a temporary commission with as its tasks the study of the specific role of women in society and the relation of man/woman on the basis of their radical equality but also their differences and their complementarities.  The Commission's mandate also included investigation of the position and role of women in the Roman Catholic Church.

    At this presentation, Msgr. Uylenbroeck explained that the commission would be inspired by two papal addressess, namely:
    • the historically important address on the role of women by Pope Pius XII, which had almost the weight of an encyclical;
    • the message of Pope Paul VI to women in the whole world at the closing of the Vatican Council.

    Some days before the presentation the Vatican Secretary sent a secret memorandum to the heads of the Roman Curia and to several nuncios with the instructions to draw it to the attention of all Bishops' Conferences.  In this secret document the Pope indicated exactly what should and should not be studied by the Commission.  The starting point of the Commission was to be the specific task of women and the complementarities of man and woman.  It was also strictly forbidden for the Commission to study the possibility of admittance of women to priesthood.  [emphasis mine.]


    An overall assessment of the Commission disappointingly shows the Vatican resorted to manipulations that include:
    • weapons of secret memorandum
    • a thwarted agenda
    • an unfairly weighted assortment of participants -- only women with no theological training permitted to participate
    • a prohibition on discussion of the topic inclusion of women in ordained ministry
    • exclusion of female theologians
    • a short cap on time granted for completion of the blockbuster commission
    • . . .

    A copy of an analysis of the Commission is found here: http://www.womenpriests.org/teaching/donders3.pdf#page=1.  Spoiler alert: The Vatican does not come out well. 

    If you have questions, please let me know.

    with love and blessings,

    ~Sophie~

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    * Synod of Bishops:  One of the major innovations from Second Vatican Council, the World Synod of Bishops was introduced by the decree Christus Dominus. An advisory body to the Pope, Synod members are elected by bishops from around the world. The Pope serves as its president or appoints its president, determines its agenda, summons, suspends, and dissolves the synod, and can also appoint additional members to it (can. 344). Members express their opinions on matters on an individual basis.  The Pope, at his option, can grant the Synod the power to issue decrees or resolutions which are then approved and promulgated by the Pope (can. 343).

    The Synod of Bishops has made important contributions to social teaching, and especially the 1971 Synod on the theme of Justice in the World. It stated categorically:



    Action on behalf of justice and participation in the transformation of the world fully appear to us as a constitutive dimension of the preaching of the Gospel, or in other words, of the church’s mission for the redemption of the human race and its liberation from every oppressive situation.


    ** Cardinal Alfredo Ottaviani, PhD, STD, JCD (1890-1979) was an Italian Cardinal. He served as Secretary of the Holy Office in the Roman Curia from 1959 to 1966 when that dicastery was reorganized as the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith
     

    Cardinal Alfredo Ottaviani
     
    He was its Pro-Prefect until 1968. Ottaviani was a prominent figure in the Church during his time, and was the leading conservative voice at the Second Vatican Council. His episcopal motto was: Semper idem ("Always the same.")  It reflected his conservative theology... and his resistance to some things that moved forward and seemed 'new.'
    post edited by Sophie - 2008/07/21 15:01:27
    Sophie
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    RE: Equal Dignity of Men and Women in Creation 2008/07/21 03:58:11 (permalink)


    Cardinal George B. Flahiff, CC, DD, csb (1905-1989)

    Born 26 October 1905 in Paris, Ontario (Diocese of Hamilton, Ontario which is sandwiched between the Diocese of London and the Archdiocese of Toronto).

    He undertook post secondary studies at St. Jerome’s, Kitchener (1920-1921) and in 1926 earned a B.A. at St. Michael’s College Toronto where one of his professors and tutor in History was Lester B. Pearson, the future Prime Minister of Canada (1963-1968). Flahiff then joined the Congregation of St. Basil novitiate. He attended St. Basil’s Seminary, Toronto and was ordained 17 August 1930.

    Between 1930-1931 he studied canon Law and History at the University of Strasbourg, France, and in 1935 was awarded a diploma in archiviste-paléographe from École de Chartes in Paris, France. Once his studies were completed he returned to Toronto where he spent nearly twenty years (1935 – 1954) as Professor of Medieval history at the Pontifical Institute of Medieval Studies at the Basilian-founded and -operated University of St. Michael’s College, Toronto. For most of those years he was also a faculty member with the Department of History, School of Graduate Studies, University of Toronto. 

    He was elected Superior General of his order (the Basilians) on 06 July 1954 and served in that capacity for six years. He was also elected President of the Canadian Religious Conference (1959-1961).

    On 31 May 1960 he was consecrated bishop and installed as Archbishop of Winnipeg Manitoba. It is said that due to his other duties and busy schedule lecturing, giving seminars and such he was frequently absent from his diocese.

    Between 1961-1963 he was Vice-President of the Canadian Conference of Catholic Bishops (CCCB) and President from 1963-1965.

    He became Cardinal Archbishop of Winnipeg on 28 April 1969 when he was elevated to the Sacred College of Cardinals. In 1974 he was awarded the Order of Canada for his example of religious leadership and his contributions to the betterment of society.
     
    Cardinal Flahiff resigned his duties as Archbishop of Winnipeg in 1982. He returned to Toronto to the Basilians and died 22 August 1989. He was buried in Winnipeg, Manitoba.
     
    George Bernard Flahiff was the son of an innkeeper in a small Ontario town. A versatile athlete and exceptional student, he studied at the University of Toronto, where his history professor, Lester Pearson, suggested a career in diplomacy. Instead, Flahiff entered the Basilian order, studied in Paris, eventually returned to Toronto where he taught at the Pontifical Institute, became superior general of the Basilians, and was named archbishop of Winnipeg. Never seeking greatness in any way but ever obedient to his calling, he rose to the highest ranks in the Church, accepting each new position with faith and humility. Ultimately a cardinal, and maker of two popes, Flahiff defied the stereotypes about bishops and cardinals, preferring buses to limousines, "George" to "Eminence, " and friendship to privilege.
     
    Flahiff's career as one full of surprises which he graciously worked through. In accounts of his work, he is presented as a scholar, benevolent minister to the people, and as a courageous Churchman willing to speak out against injustice while being misunderstood by the hierarchy as something of a radical.
    Sophie
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    RE: Equal Dignity of Men and Women in Creation 2008/07/21 14:43:56 (permalink)
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
    Though once considered highly papabile (an unofficial Italian term first coined by Vaticanologists and now used internationally in many languages to describe a cardinal of whom it is thought likely or possible that he will be elected pope), it is said Cardinal Flahiff's potential for papability was permanently crushed when he publicly rose at the 1971 Synod of Bishops to suggest to the Vatican that consideration be given to the ordination of women.

     
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    RE: Equal Dignity of Men and Women in Creation 2008/07/26 20:07:05 (permalink)
    Dear friends,

    Cardinal Flahiff inviting an opening of minds to the consideration of women's ordination; Cardinal Ottaviani's secret manipulations; a thwarted commission; an intriguing history...

    In his article, Church without Women Leaders:  Will Women Ever Govern the Roman Catholic Church? (published in the November 2006 edition of the Geneva Post Quarterly) missionary priest, eminent scholar on the ordination of women in the Roman Catholic Church, founder, now Academic Advisor to www.womenpriests.org and developer of the Women Priests Internet Library,  Dr. John Wijngaards provides a  researched  account of the historical process leading to the current situation of the continued discrimination against women in the Church. 
      
    In his article he writes:

    The Catholic Church has moved on since the day, on 29 July 1904, when Pope Pius X instructed the bishops of Italy not to trust the intelligence or reliability of women. “In public meetings, never allow women to take the word, however respectable or pious they may seem. If on a specific occasion bishops consider it opportune to permit a meeting for women by themselves, these may speak but only under the presidency and supervision of high ecclesiastical personalities.” (P. Gaiotti de Biase, Le origini del movimento cattolico femminile, Brescia 1963, p. 74.)

    Dr. Wijngaards examines:
    • Where does the discrimination come from?
    • Assimilation into Church discipline
    • the era of rationalization
    • stand off between the Vatican and Catholic scholarship
    • 'It Could Have Been So Different...'
    • What? Surely No Women at the Altar!
    • Leaders in a Dysfunctional Church
    Dr. Wijngaards also pays special attention to the courage shown by Cardinal Flahiff during the 1971 Synod of Bishops,  the subsequent Special Commission  To Study The Function of Women in Society and the Church, and the thwarting manipulations of Cardinal Ottaviani, former Prefect for the Congregation of the Doctrine of Faith.  Dr. Wijngaards observes:


    The Second Vatican Council opened windows in all directions and provided the first chance of real Church reform... Everything suddenly seemed possible. Even for women! The current joke was: “at the next Council, bishops will be invited to bring their wives, at the one after that to bring their husbands.”

    Do not forget that for the first time in the Church’s history women were actually allowed to be present in St. Peter’s Basilica, the Council hall, even though the lucky ones were only a handful with no more than observer status. But Gertrude Heinzelmann and other intrepid women managed to hand in a formal request that women’s ministries should be considered. The issue was on the table, though it did not make it onto the agenda.

    Cardinal Ottaviani embodied resistance to change. He was Prefect of the Holy Office and so Cardinal Ratzinger’s worthy forerunner. His official motto read: Semper Idem - ‘Always the Same’. He suffered significant defeats. One liberating document after the other was accepted by the Council fathers. I remember the day when Ottaviani overran the ten-minute time limit put on speakers and Cardinal Alfrink of Utrecht, Council moderator for the day, forced him to stop.

    The Council fathers applauded. Ottaviani stepped down with a red face. It was the end of Ottaviani’s dominance. Or so it seemed to optimists like me.

    ...

    What had meanwhile taken place in Rome is only now becoming clear. We should have known. We should have noticed the first symptoms.

    Cardinal Ottaviani had been restored to considerable influence under Pope Paul VI. When the international committee of experts recommended that contraceptives could legitimately be used by married couples in certain circumstances, Ottaviani and three allies blocked the report. They persuaded a worried Paul VI to reject the committee’s findings and sign the now infamous encyclical Humanae Vitae that bans contraceptives always and everywhere. It goes against nature, we are told. ...

    1971 was a year of promise. Representatives from all over the world gathered at the Bishops’ Synod in Rome. The Canadian Bishops’ Conference - God bless them! - through their spokesman Cardinal Flahiff, formally requested the Church to open the discussion on admitting women to all the ministries. Others concurred. How would the Vatican respond?
     
    The Canadian request was timely from point of view of the Church’s rank-and-file members. That is: the ordinary faithful, carriers of inerrancy according to Vatican II. However, from a Church political point of view, the timing could not have been worse. Conservative forces were reorganising themselves under the leadership - you have guessed it! - of Cardinal Ottaviani. These could not possibly conceive of a change so fundamental as women entering holy orders. Absurd!

    But the Vatican authorities went through the motions. A special commission was set up to study the Function of Women in Society and the Church (1973). The Biblical Commission was asked to look at the question from a scriptural angle. It would all work out, they were sure.

    Imagine their surprise and panic when support for women as priests welled up spontaneously in many official bodies. The Vatican acted immediately to stamp out such signs of rebellion. The commission on the Function of Women was directed not to discuss women’s ministries, even though this had been the reason why it was set up.

    Dissenting voices (1974 - 1975) were suppressed as we know from the records of Rie Vendrik, a Dutch representative. (Dirkje Donders, The Tenacious Voice of Women. Rie Vendrik and the Pontifical Commission On Women in Society and in the Church, Utrecht 2002. Online report here.)

    The final report of the commission was never published. The Pontifical Biblical Commission (1975) came out in favour of the ordination of women. In response, its report was withheld from publication. And, to muzzle the commission for good, it was henceforth made totally subject to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, as the Holy Office was now called. The truth only emerged when the commission’s chairman, Fr. Stanley, resigned, and when the report was leaked to the press.

    In spite of dark days, Dr. Wijngaards concludes his analysis with the question: 'Will women be ordained leaders in the Catholic Church?'  His answer which gives me hope:


    I look at history. The ruthless migrating nations that ravished the Roman Empire destroyed Christian communities. They also laid the foundation of flourishing Christian medieval societies. I see that atrocious horror, the second world war, paradoxically giving birth to computers, travel by jet, nuclear energy and satelite communication. It also liberated women in many countries and brought the United Nations closer together. I see communism, contrary to everyone’s calculations, crumbling in Eastern Europe even though it seemed secure under a canopy of terror.

    Yes, women will become leaders in the Catholic Church: deacons, priests, bishops and popes. Perhaps sooner than we dare expect. Christ’s Spirit has not died. She is very active in the body of the Church. Though she works through human instruments, she will not fail.
    Please enjoy his scholarship and analysis as we continue to learn.  A copy of his article is available here: http://www.womenpriests.org/teaching/wijnga_1.asp.

    with love and blessings,

    ~Sophie~
    post edited by Sophie - 2008/07/28 01:24:24
    Sophie
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    RE: Equal Dignity of Men and Women in Creation 2008/07/26 20:24:56 (permalink)
    Dr. John Wijngaards, scripture scholar, founder and now Academic Advisor of www.womenpriests.org


    Dr. John Wijngaards

    Dr. John Wijngaards  was dean of studies at St. John's College, Hyderabad and Lecturer at the Missionary Institute London (affiliated to Middlesex and Louvain Universities). He has published more than 20 books.  Among them are:

    • No Women in Holy Orders?
    • The Ordination of Women in the RC Church
    • The Gospel of John
    • The Spirit in John
    • Communicating the Word of God
    • Did Christ Rule Out Women Priests?
    • The Dramatization of Salvific History in the Deuteronomic Schools.

    Learn more about him, see here:


    Dr. Wijngaards was the winner of the Marga Klompé Award 2005 in recognition of his work for renewal of the ministry in the Roman Catholic Church, in particular for his academic campaign in support of opening the ordained ministries to women.

    ~God bless Dr. Wijngaards!~

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    RE: Equal Dignity of Men and Women in Creation 2008/08/08 16:46:58 (permalink)


    ~God bless Dr. Wijngaards!~


    amen, sounds like he went through something similar to Francis McNutt [who I am more familiar with]
    http://www.christianhealingmin.org/whoare.htm

    maz

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    RE: Equal Dignity of Men and Women in Creation 2008/08/16 21:04:59 (permalink)
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