Women Can Be Priests
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2006/01/25 15:43:44 (permalink)

Welcome from the Administrator

Welcome to CIRCLES. This is your forum to be used as and when you like. We hope that you will look in here and make a contribution. It is a chance for you to share your own views and opinions about the ordination of women in the Catholic Church, and also in other Christian Churches.

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post edited by Admin - 2006/05/14 11:37:05

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    RE: Welcome from the Administrator 2006/04/26 14:10:39 (permalink)
    I have been reading the arguments about the importance of Mary Magdalen rolling hither and thither. I suggest the correspondents might study The Gospel of Mary by Dr. E.A. de Boer.
    For their information I quote a review by P. Nagy, so that they will know what to expect. I have it from Amazon Books.
     




    P. Nagy "revreader" (Chapel Hill, NC USA) - See all my reviews
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    The Gospel Of Mary: Beyond A Gnostic And A Biblical Mary Magdalene by Esther A. De Boer (Journal for the Study of the New Testament Supplement Series: T. & T. Clark Publishers) Two basic viewpoints are usually distinguished in recent scholarly work on the Biblical and Gnostic Mary Magdalene: (1) Gnostic authors have constructed a Gnostic Mary Magdalene using the biblical portrait of her as a vehicle for Gnostic teaching, and, (2) biblical authors neglected the important role of Mary Magdalene, of which Gnostic authors preserved evidence. In addition, on the one hand the Gnostic Mary Magdalene is valued as a female apostolic leader, as an advocate of women and of egalitarian discipleship, and as a revealer of Gnostic insights. On the other hand, scholars point to the specific dualism, and the subsequently negative female imagery in Gnostic writings, and reject a positive evaluation of the Gnostic Mary Magdalene.
    To be able to evaluate these different viewpoints on the Gnostic Mary Magdalene, the present study focuses on the Gospel of Mary, which is considered to be the most important early witness to the esteem of Mary Magdalene in Gnostic circles. Boer investigates the following aspects:
    1. The dualism involved in the Gospel of Mary: is it a specific Gnostic dualism and does it contain a negative use of female imagery?
    2. Mary's teaching in the Gospel of Mary: what is the specific content of her teaching?
    3. The Gospel of Mary's view on Mary Magdalene; does this gospel advocate the apostolic leadership of women, an egalitarian discipleship and a non-hierarchical way of being the church?
    4. The portrayals of Mary Magdalene in the Now Testament Gospels: to what extent can the portrayal of Mary Magdalene in the Gospel of Mary, her relation to the Saviour, her position among the disciples, her function in the story, be understood from the New Testament Gospels?
    By addressing these questions Boer contributes to the present debate about the Gnostic Mary Magdalene. The study begins with an introduction to the Gospel of Mary. It goes into its three incomplete manuscripts of the Gospel of Mary, the provenance of the original document, its date and composition, the persons in the story and the identification of Mary as Mary Magdalene. The chapter also provides a new translation of the nine pages from the Coptic manuscript, followed by a study of the meaning of the Gospel of Mary, and of the definition of the term `Gnostic'.
    Next Boer examines the purpose of and the dualism in the Gospel of Mary and the question whether it is to be seen as a Gnostic document. Boer focuses on the author's portrayal of Mary Magdalene in the Gospel of Mary. What is her relation to the Saviour, what is her position among the disciples and what is her function in the story? The author speaks from the viewpoint of Peter, of Andrew, of Levi, of the Savior, and of Mary herself. Through the interaction of these views, through the extra knowledge and view of the narrator and dialogic structure, through Mary's teaching and through certain indications in the text, Boer examines the development of the plot in which the author's view of Mary Magdalene becomes apparent.
    To be able to investigate the origin of the portrayal of Mary Magdalene in the Gospel of Mary an examination of the New Testament Gospels is elaborated, since they contain the earliest written material on Mary Magdalene. First Boer studies the portrayal of Mary Magdalene in the Gospel of Mark. Almost at the end of the Gospel, Mark for the first time declares that a considerable number of women had been following Jesus. What to think of these women? What is their function in Mark's story? And what about Mary Magdalene in their midst? In order to fully consider these questions Boer not only focuses on Mark, but also on the historical situation at the time of the Gospel witness and communities Boer also investigates the Gospels of Matthew and Luke and the Gospel of John, considering their view of women and Mary Magdalene in particular as well as possible historical contexts.
    Boer wraps up with an evaluation of the portrayals of Mary Magdalene in the Gospel of Mary and the New Testament Gospels, reflecting on the substantive questions enumerated above.
     
    Theresia
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    RE: Welcome from the Administrator 2008/07/05 16:22:11 (permalink)
    I will tell you that the deaonate is to be the divinely sanctioned order of the miracle of Pope John Paul 11. The study of phenomenlogy is to be the science of miracle. It was not heard of a man who had wanted to raise moron instead and all the clergy of the Paterson Diocese of New Jersey, USA has eveidence provign this as miracle and the reason we are NOT even considered to have been ordained is cover up. It is in the novel Ten Men and a Road that this is miracle . It was heard I woudl be deacon and if you read and recommend others to read Ten Men and a Road it will tell you on the cover of what this is to bring of science and woudl so like to place it on top of all the letters written for our Pontiff. I have been invited to brign this work of ten years to the study of philosophy at Silverman center of Phenomenology at Duquennce and am in Ohio readying for it with an office to continue to prove this work John's miracle and the issue of women beign ordained. Anyone that can help me get this work to our Pontiff will stand deacon faster than what we are doing now. I am indebted to anyone who can give deacons the idea that thsi is faith and that this is work of the Holy Spirit and welcome a god danm moron os what Churches are doing if men are to be the hearts of them. I am married to a deacon and attorney and wonder why he had wanted to lift what he had and noone then, understood sacred orders of it ( or marriage or any of what was to be lifted of this blessed story). I thank you for all the work you have been doing to lift this cause and hope there can be some assistance in helping me get this miracle to the Pope, as women are ot be ordained of it. verasitude1@aol.com Sue Mellott Dolan
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    RE: Welcome from the Administrator 2008/07/05 16:29:14 (permalink)
    Ten Men and a Road is what should be read for all women deacons to know all Orders are to have been divinely ordained and upon the hearing of this work would be if raised. It was a woman who heard it. The work is of ten years and all work to be given to the Pontiff of Tribunal annullment of this deacon cause they woudl not hear it as miracle or investigate it. I have all evidence to brign you.
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    RE: Welcome from the Administrator 2008/07/05 17:41:05 (permalink)
    10 Men and A Road sounds like it is not accurate if it is supposed to be about Jesus. 
     
     Jesus travelled with Mary Magdalene, Salome, Mary Mother of Jesus, Mary of Bethany, Susanna and Joanna from the beginning to the Resurrection and that is what the New Testament tells us.   Women too accopanied both Jesus and Paul. 
     
    Jesus and Paul both praise the women highly for doing the work of God, sometimes the women do the work of God even better than the men according to Jesus, John 4
     
    .Paul toohighly commends and praises Apostle Junia and Phoebe deacon and numerous great women of the church..
     
    Sounds like 10 Men and the Road does not tell the Jesus Story.  Where are the women chosen and praised by both Jesus and St. Paul?
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    RE: Welcome from the Administrator 2008/07/06 16:23:53 (permalink)
    Our family has stopped going to mass.  The Church in Rome has gone crazy in how it is for kids and women.  The Church abuses kids and abuses women.  We will not go back to it unless it becomes like how Jesus was.  Jesus had women disciples  too.   Jesus loved women too, not just men. Jesus  always had women doing work for the  church, no telling the women that they were not welcome.
     
    .  We signed the Sister Louis Sears petition you have in the Announcement part, page three.  The Pope and the archbishop Burke have got to get in line with the Gospel and Jesus, not their own hatred of women.  Return Sister Lears to having communion , return her to her church work and stop beating up on women, abusing Catholic kids and Catholic women.  No way is the Pope like Jesus.  Did Jesus ever excommunicate or silence a woman?  No, just the opposite!  The Pope is so bad for the Church.  Somebody remove the kingdom keys from the Pope;  he is dead drunk on woman hating, blind to priest abuse of our kids, and steering the Church off the road Jesus laid down for us.  Let women be priests too and start acting on it pronto.  Remove the penalties on Sister Louis Lears too.
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    RE: Welcome from the Administrator 2008/09/01 08:45:45 (permalink)
       I am here because I want to learn more about what roles women had in the Church from the time of Our Lord.
    It seems that women were admitted to the diaconate , but in the West they were not really accepted i.e they were exceptions.
    This puzzles me. On the one hand the Church grew in an organic way incorporating cultural norms - e.g. the Roman women was ideally hidden from public office, so women did not exercise a public role in the Church. Now , given that the Church is still growing organically, it would seem logical the women's roles within Her will grow too.  But does that include the priesthood ?
       The problem seems to me to do with public life - a woman is able to be a priest or deacon if it is to serve a community like a group of religious women.  Where the authority of the Church has been used to curb women's public roles it has been a matter of decorum rather than theology.
    It may well have been the right action at the time since the male members of a congregation probably would have been scandalised.  
        But to-day - well ,  men still do not like women in authority. I do not like some aspects of feminism myself. Infact , I think that they have harmed women in some ways. Women are exhausted by trying to have families and careers - not all women, of course. Some manage both very well - I am just trying to show that feminism is just that;  another -ism.
       I am wary of seeking God's will for women priests in the thoughts of feminists - I think that is the bottom line for me.
        
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    RE: Welcome from the Administrator 2008/09/02 01:29:46 (permalink)
    I think it must be pointed out that women in the early church served the entire church community, not just women. 
     
     Persis, Apostle Junia, Phoebe deacon, Lydia, Tryphosa, Tryphona, Mary Magdalene, and the rest of the women ministered to all, not just women.
     
    This is clearly shown by both Jesus and St. Paul.  Women are never told only to talk to women, or only to minister to just women.  Never.  St. Paul praises them for ministering and preaching and prophesizing and being deacons and helping and leading all the community, all the church in the towns and cities they are part of or visiting and helping.
     
    No discrimination comes from Jesus or St. Paul . 
     
    Ordain women now, it is clear they were just as active in all roles in the church during Jesus's time, with his approval and praise and later with the approval and praise of St. Paul.
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    RE: Welcome from the Administrator 2008/09/02 02:09:51 (permalink)
    Why put down feminism?  I am a woman, so when you tear away at 'feminism' and call it an 'ism' I think, you put down women.  What is manism?  Is it a way to control women, keep them in 'their pkace'?  I am wary of 'manism' that wants to limit women.
     
    Women end up, most through no choice of their own, raising children without the man--abandoned, divorced by the man who finds a different partner and fails to support his previous family---  so if a woman is at all 'feminist'  it is very beneficial for the kids and family.
     
    Why?  She needs education-----formerly only males were educated,  to get decent pay, she needs decent employment, wages and benefits, medical, dental to properly care for the family, the kids and herself.
     
    "feminism'  this 'ism' is very benficial to the family, society, children .
     
     'manism' that denies women education, employment, legal rights, resources, medical and dental benefits is what is something to dread and be wary of. 
     
     women and child denying  'manism'  hurts our society and families, poverty  inflicted by 'manism' and 'males only entitilement'  does not benefit our children,  "Manism' hurts our children.  Feminism is good, women are good and can be good  mothers.   Far more men than women abandon their children.
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    RE: Welcome from the Administrator 2008/09/02 02:14:32 (permalink)
    I am not saying men can not be good parents.  Men  can be good parents.  Many men are good parents. . 
     
       However it is also true that too many men do abandon their children and previous family when they take up with another woman or other partner. 
     
     Way more men callously abandon their children than mothers ever do.  Tons of statistics and real life stories prove this fact.
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    RE: Welcome from the Administrator 2008/09/05 09:04:38 (permalink)
    I was not putting down feminism - merely expressing a view that questions  whether feminism  has  strongest  arguments in favour of ordaining women.
                   In my humble opinion  ,  that  argument of ' equality ' is  not the strongest - it sounds like children arguing that ' its not fair ! '
     
    Priesthood is a calling , not a career.  It is not a sign of honour , but more a burden. 
     
       The point is that women who feel a calling should be able to  tell the Church's hierarchy  without being made to feel disloyal.
    It needs to come to the opinion that these callings are genuine.
     
      The aspects in feminism which appeal to atheists/agnostics may not be the ones which will convince  the hierarchy to change a two thousand year rule.
     
      That's all I was saying. I did not say that women should stay at home / not be educated  etc.
     
    One of the best sermons I heard recently from my parish priest was a strong condemnation to men who do not stay with the women and children they  ' sire'  !    His word not mine .
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    RE: Welcome from the Administrator 2008/09/05 16:58:28 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: Guest

    I was not putting down feminism - merely expressing a view that questions  whether feminism  has  strongest  arguments in favour of ordaining women.
                   In my humble opinion  ,  that  argument of ' equality ' is  not the strongest - it sounds like children arguing that ' its not fair ! '
     
    Priesthood is a calling , not a career.  It is not a sign of honour , but more a burden. 
     
       The point is that women who feel a calling should be able to  tell the Church's hierarchy  without being made to feel disloyal.
    It needs to come to the opinion that these callings are genuine.
     
      The aspects in feminism which appeal to atheists/agnostics may not be the ones which will convince  the hierarchy to change a two thousand year rule.
     
      That's all I was saying. I did not say that women should stay at home / not be educated  etc.
     
    One of the best sermons I heard recently from my parish priest was a strong condemnation to men who do not stay with the women and children they  ' sire'  !    His word not mine .

     
    Equality and justice are important to God. Read the Sermon in the Mount.
    Discrimination against any person (even a woman) is immoral.
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    RE: Welcome from the Administrator 2008/09/05 17:21:01 (permalink)
    A calling to be a priest is certainly not a "burden' and if you think so please do not consider it.  I agree that the callings to be ordained are genuine whether one is a woman or a man.  God and Jesus do not discriminate. 
     
     I agree with you and thanks for the affirmation and confirmation that women ought to be allowed to be priests too.
     
    The aspects of manism burden the hierarchy when they lead to exclusion of women from service to God in all ways and using full gifts the women have been given by God, just as men are given the calling to be priest.
     
    I see feminism as very positive as it directly led to voting rights for women in many countries and more pay equity, more legal rights, more access to education and is beneficial for family and children too.  Thanks for your ideas you share!
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    RE: Welcome from the Administrator 2008/09/06 05:47:02 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: Guest

    I was not putting down feminism - merely expressing a view that questions  whether feminism  has  strongest  arguments in favour of ordaining women.
                   In my humble opinion  ,  that  argument of ' equality ' is  not the strongest - it sounds like children arguing that ' its not fair ! '
     
    Priesthood is a calling , not a career.  It is not a sign of honour , but more a burden. 
     
       The point is that women who feel a calling should be able to  tell the Church's hierarchy  without being made to feel disloyal.
    It needs to come to the opinion that these callings are genuine.
     
      The aspects in feminism which appeal to atheists/agnostics may not be the ones which will convince  the hierarchy to change a two thousand year rule.
     
      That's all I was saying. I did not say that women should stay at home / not be educated  etc.
     
    One of the best sermons I heard recently from my parish priest was a strong condemnation to men who do not stay with the women and children they  ' sire'  !    His word not mine .

     
     
    I also struggle with the word 'feminism.'  It is a word that has a lot of baggage.  Even so, I claim it.  No one kind of feminism has dibbs on the word.  And there are many kinds of feminism. By the way, great sermon from your priest. 
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    RE: Welcome from the Administrator 2008/09/06 20:17:56 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: Guest

    I was not putting down feminism - merely expressing a view that questions  whether feminism  has  strongest  arguments in favour of ordaining women.
                   In my humble opinion  ,  that  argument of ' equality ' is  not the strongest - it sounds like children arguing that ' its not fair ! '
     


    Ask yourself this question. If it were exclusion from the priesthood of Negroes or Asians or a particular nationality, would it be fair? Would it be wrong and immoral?
     
    Would they be seen as whining “it’s not fair” if they complained?
     
    Why should it be different for women?
     
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    RE: Welcome from the Administrator 2008/09/06 23:28:41 (permalink)
    That is a good way to put it.
     
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