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RE: Papal History 2009/01/13 05:32:28 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: Sophie

 But women have no part in the order of the priesthood, nor can they have it.” 
 


 
Why do we remain slaves to the ignorance of the past?
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RE: Papal History 2009/01/13 05:39:21 (permalink)

 
Rufinus, a canon lawyer and theologian
 
 

Rufinus, a canon lawyer and theologian, wrote his Summa Decretorum between 1157 and 1159 AD. It became a normative source for later Church lawyers.
 
What did he have to say about women?  From our library:
 
1.     Deaconesses
 
In his On Causa 27, question 1, chapter 23,  Rufinus comments on the contradiction between the 15th Canon of the Council of Chalcedon (See also Council of Chalcedon), the General Church Council in 451 which allows deaconesses once they are 40 years old) and the writings of the theologian ‘Ambrose’ (=Ambrosiaster) who rejects deaconesses altogether.  Rufinus writes:
I consider it sufficiently amazing how the Council decrees that deaconesses should be ordained after 40 years, while Ambrosius states that ordaining deaconesses goes against authority. For he says in his commentary on the Letter to Timothy at the verses ‘Women should be modest, etc.’: ‘The Cataphrygae use these words to prove that deaconesses should be ordained, which is against authority.’ (Read Ambrosiaster).

But it is one thing for women to be ordained through the sacrament for an office at the altar, in the way deacons are ordained, and this is forbidden; quite another matter to be ‘ordained’ to some other ministry of the Church, what is permitted in this text.

However, today this kind of deaconesses are not found in the Church. Perhaps, abbesses are ordained in their stead.”
Source: Ida Raming, The Exclusion of Women from the Priesthood, Scarecrow Press, Metuchen 1976, pp. 50-54.

http://www.womenpriests.org/theology/rufinus.asp
Sophie
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RE: Papal History 2009/01/13 05:50:06 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: Guest

ORIGINAL: Sophie

 But women have no part in the order of the priesthood, nor can they have it.” 
 



Why do we remain slaves to the ignorance of the past?



Dear friend,

That is a very good question.  I believe that many people simply lack information or have acted on innocent reliance on what they have been told.  Be assured we are doing our parts to undo the ignorance.  We appreciate your support for it is quite a task.

In a recent article I read written by a woman who defends the Vatican's exclusion of women from priesthood, she used the words, "Of course we know they have always had our best interests at heart."  I haven't yet had the time to write to her with 'information' and encouragement to read some of the records.

Not everyone will change her or his mind.  For my own part, once I learned about our history, I could not rest.  I am grateful for the www.womenpriests.org website.  The work of the Team helped me to become more informed.  I now feel compelled to help educate people about where we have come from.  It is my hope that that once more of us become better informed about the truth of our history -- once more of us see things in the light -- we will create the critical mass needed for change.  I am learning from other avenues of science that critical for mass needed for change is not as big as I once thought it was.  There are good reasons to have hope.  Collectively, we can bring about transformation.  Considering the size and influence of our Church, the transformation that takes place in it will most certainly become gift for women in the world.

What are your thoughts about this?  I'd love to hear them.  As I work on this thread, some of it seems like I am spreading such gloom and doom...yet these facts are part of our community journey... and most of us don't know it.  It is time to shine light on the dark corners and sweep out the crud.

with love and blessings,

~Sophie~ 
post edited by Sophie - 2009/01/13 06:23:24
Sophie
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RE: Papal History 2009/01/13 05:55:20 (permalink)
 


Back to theologian/canon lawyer Rufinus's documented views about women:
 
2.     Women may not distribute holy communion
 
In his On distinctio 2, de cons. chapter 29, Rufinus writes about taking communion to the sick.  Though Gratian reserved  this task totally to priests, Rufinus provides that in case a priest is ill, it is allowed to have the sacrament be taken to the sick by a boy. Delivery of the sacrament by a woman was not even entertained as a question.  Rufinus writes:
Unless the priest falls ill. For in that he case he may send communion to the sick through a boy, if there is great urgency.

Source: Ida Raming, The Exclusion of Women from the Priesthood, Scarecrow Press, Metuchen 1976, pp. 50-54.

http://www.womenpriests.org/theology/rufinus.asp
Sophie
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RE: Papal History 2009/01/13 05:59:05 (permalink)
 



3.     Rufinus on Women and menstruation:   In his On Distinction 5, beginning, Rufinus writes about the terrible affliction, menstruation:

“That blood is so execrable and impure, as already Julius Solinus has written in the book about the miracles of the world, that through its contacts fruits do not mature, plants wither, the grass dies, the trees lose their fruits, the air becomes dark, if dogs eat it they are afflicted with rabies..... And intercourse at the time of the monthly period is very risky. Not only because of the uncleanness of the blood has the desire to be restrained from contacting a menstruating woman: from such an intercourse a spoilt foetus could be born.”
Source: Ida Raming, The Exclusion of Women from the Priesthood, Scarecrow Press, Metuchen 1976, pp. 50-54.

http://www.womenpriests.org/theology/rufinus.asp
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RE: Papal History 2009/01/13 06:02:07 (permalink)
 



4.     Rufinus: Women to stay out of Church after child birth: In his On Distinction 5, chapter 2, Rufinus contradicts Gregory the Great who allowed a woman to enter a church immediately after childbirth, by saying that this permission has now been abolished in the practice of the Church:

“This permission to the woman has now been abolished because of the contrary practice of the Church and mostly because of what we read in the penitentiary of Theodorus, that if a woman has presumed to enter a church before a predefined time, she has to do penance by fasting on bread and water for as many days as she would have needed to stay away from Church.”
Source: Ida Raming, The Exclusion of Women from the Priesthood, Scarecrow Press, Metuchen 1976, pp. 50-54.

http://www.womenpriests.org/theology/rufinus.asp  
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RE: Papal History 2009/01/13 06:04:17 (permalink)
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Rufinus also denies the woman any powers in court cases, either as a judge, or as a witness, or in any other function... which goes completely contrary to the commission Christ gave to the woman, Mary Magdalene, witness and first herald to the Good News of the Resurrection....
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RE: Papal History 2009/01/13 06:32:28 (permalink)

 
Sicardus of Cremona, a canon lawyer and theologian
 
 

 
Sicardo, or Sicardus of Cremona (Latin: Sicardus Cremonensis; 1155 – 1215) was a prelate, canon lawyer, theologian, historian and writer whose ecclesiastical career spanned the twelfth and thirteenth centuries.

Sicardo was born into a Cremonese family, probably the Casalaschi. He studied law in Bologna and Mainz, then returned to Cremona where he became a subdeacon in 1183 and bishop of Cremona in 1185. (Sichardi episcopi Cremonensis).

On April 18, 1188, Bishop Sicardo laid the first stone of a new castle to defend Cremona. This was an outpost toward Crema, the Castrum Leonis, today Castelleone (Province of Cremona).
 

View of Cremona

In 1203 he followed the Pontifical legate Cardinal Peter of Capua to the East and during the Fourth Crusade he was found in Constantinople. In 1205 Sicardo returned to Cremona where he supported Frederick II against the Holy Roman Emperor Otto IV of Braunschweig.

Sicardo died in Cremona in 1215.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicardus_of_Cremona
post edited by Sophie - 2009/01/13 15:01:56
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RE: Papal History 2009/01/13 06:35:46 (permalink)
 
 
 
 

Sicardus wrote the Summa Decretorum between 1179 and 1181 AD. He also composed a liturgical work known as Mitrale.   What did he have to say about women?
 
1.     Women may not accuse a priest in court:  From his  Causa 15, quaestio 3:
“Those who may not be priests, cannot accuse a priest or give witness against him.”

Source: Ida Raming, The Exclusion of Women from the Priesthood, Scarecrow Press, Metuchen 1976, pp. 50-54.

http://www.womenpriests.org/theology/sicardus.asp
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RE: Papal History 2009/01/13 06:39:18 (permalink)
 




2.     From Sicardo's Causa 33, quaestio 5, chapters17,19: Women must wear a veil; women may not speak in the presence of a bishop; women may not teach:


“A woman must cover her head for two reasons: because of original sin and out of respect for the bishop. She is not allowed to speak in the presence of a bishop. Also she is not allowed to teach.”

Source: Ida Raming, The Exclusion of Women from the Priesthood, Scarecrow Press, Metuchen 1976, pp. 50-54.

http://www.womenpriests.org/theology/sicardus.asp
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RE: Papal History 2009/01/13 06:41:11 (permalink)




3. From Sicardo's On Distinctio 1 de cons.: Women are not allowed to touch any of the sacred vessels used in the liturgy:

 “Reverence with regard to sacred utensils is shown both in what one does and in what one does not do. With regard to not doing, utensils may only be touched by men and not even be touched by religious sisters”.
Source: Ida Raming, The Exclusion of Women from the Priesthood, Scarecrow Press, Metuchen 1976, pp. 50-54.

http://www.womenpriests.org/theology/sicardus.asp
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RE: Papal History 2009/01/13 06:44:17 (permalink)
 
 



4.     From Sicardo's Mitrale V, fol. 60v: Man is the origin of woman, which is the reason why he has total control over her.:

“There exists in marriage a trace of the Blessed Trinity. Because the husband is the origin, from which woman comes forth; and both are the origin from which children come forth”.

Source: Ida Raming, The Exclusion of Women from the Priesthood, Scarecrow Press, Metuchen 1976, pp. 50-54.

http://www.womenpriests.org/theology/sicardus.asp
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RE: Papal History 2009/01/13 06:46:52 (permalink)



5.     From Sicardo's Mitrale V, chapter 11: The birth of a girl carries a double curse:

“There were two commandments in the (Old) Law, one pertaining to the mother giving birth, the other to the delivery itself. With regard to the mother giving birth, when she had given birth to a male child, she was to refrain from entering the Temple for forty days as an unclean person: because the foetus, conceived in uncleanliness, is said to remain formless for forty days. But if she gave birth to a female child, the space of time was doubled, for the menstrual blood, which accompanies birth, is considered to such an extent unclean that, as Solinus states, fruits dry up and grass withers at its touch. But why was the time for a female child doubled? Solution: because a double curse lies on the feminine growth. For she carries the curse of Adam and also the (punishment) ‘you will give birth in pain’. Or, perhaps, because, as the knowledge of physicians reveals, female children remain at conception twice as long unformed as male children.”
Source: Ida Raming, The Exclusion of Women from the Priesthood, Scarecrow Press, Metuchen 1976, pp. 50-54.

http://www.womenpriests.org/theology/sicardus.asp
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RE: Papal History 2009/01/13 06:49:21 (permalink)
 




6.     From Sicardo's Mitrale V, fol. 12r: Ordaining a woman is automatically invalid:


“What would happen if a Jew or a pagan were to receive holy orders and ordination to dignity. Some say that such a person would be a (genuine) bishop. What, however, if a woman were to be ordained? But then, how will she be ordained? If a slave has passed a judgement, is it not automatically undone?”

Source: Ida Raming, The Exclusion of Women from the Priesthood, Scarecrow Press, Metuchen 1976, pp. 50-54.

http://www.womenpriests.org/theology/sicardus.asp
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RE: Papal History 2009/01/13 14:36:10 (permalink)

 
Hugucchio, also a canon lawyer and theologian.
 

 
 
Huguccio (Hugh of Pisa) was an Italian canon lawyer (b. at Pisa, date unknown; d. in 1210). His major non-legal work is the Magnae Derivationes or Liber derivationum, dealing with etymologies, based on the earlier Derivationes of Osbernus of Gloucester.
 
He studied at Bologna, probably under Gandolphus, and taught canon law in the same city, perhaps in the school connected with the monastery of SS. Nabore e Felice. In 1190 he became Bishop of Ferrara.
 
Among his pupils was Lothario de' Conti, afterwards Innocent III, who held him in high esteem as is shown by the important cases which the pontiff submitted to him, traces of which still remain in the "Corpus Juris" (c. Coram, 34, X, I, 29). Two letters addressed by Innocent III to Huguccio were inserted in the Decretals of Gregory IX (c. Quanto, 7, X, IV, 19; c. In quadam, 8, X,III,41).
 
He wrote a "Summa" on the "Decretum" of Gratian, concluded according to some in 1187, according to others after 1190, the most extensive and perhaps the most authoritative commentary of that time. He omits, however, in the commentary on the second part of the "Decretum" of Gratian, Causae xxiii-xxvi, a gap which was filled by Joannes de Deo.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huguccio
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RE: Papal History 2009/01/13 14:40:58 (permalink)
Huguccio had an enormous influence on canon lawyers and theologians of later centuries. His work formed the basis for the later works of Laurentius and Johannes Teutonicus.

Huguccio wrote his commentary on Church law, the Summa, in 1188 AD. What were some of his perspectives on women? 

1.     From his On Causa 27, quaestio 1, chapter 23: ‘Deaconesses’ did not receive real holy orders:



“(These women) ... should not receive the veil, that is: they should not be ordained to be deaconesses. For in the past some nuns were ordained to be deaconesses, not to holy orders but to some ministry such as to proclaim the Gospel during matins or something similar. At present this does not happen, but without any specific institutions there are still some nuns in some places who read the Gospel.”

.....“Deaconesses were ordained, that is: they were elected and established with some solemnity in one or other ministry, which agrees with deacons. Perhaps they sang or read out the Gospel during matins as well as prayer. This ministry and dignity was called the diaconate.”
 
“Some people say that formerly women were ordained until the deaconate, that afterwards they were forbidden in the time of Ambrosius, that afterwards again they were ordained during the time of this council (Chalcedon), that they are not being ordained now. But the first explanation prevails, namely that the deaconate was merely the imposition of a religious veil.”

Source: Ida Raming, The Exclusion of Women from the Priesthood, Scarecrow Press, Metuchen 1976, pp. 61-64.

http://www.womenpriests.org/theology/huguccio.asp
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RE: Papal History 2009/01/13 14:44:34 (permalink)
 
 
 
 
2.     From Huguccio's On Distinction 23, chapter 25: A woman cannnot receive holy orders because of her sex:

 “I am saying that a woman cannot receive ordination. What prohibits her from it? A decree of the Church and her sex, that is a decree of the Church made on account of her sex. If therefore a woman is ordained in fact, she does not actually receive ordination, and is forbidden to exercise the office to which she was ordained”.
Source: Ida Raming, The Exclusion of Women from the Priesthood, Scarecrow Press, Metuchen 1976, pp. 61-64.

http://www.womenpriests.org/theology/huguccio.asp
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RE: Papal History 2009/01/13 14:48:24 (permalink)
 
 
3.     In Huguccio's On Causa 27, quaestio 1, chapter 23, ad v.: The borderline case of hermaphrodites:

“As to a hermaphrodite, if he has a beard and always wants to engage in manly activities and not in those of women, and if he always seeks the company of men and not of women, it is a sign that the masculine sex predominates in him and then he can be a witness where a woman is not allowed, namely with regard to a last will and testament, and he also can be ordained a priest. If he however lacks a beard and always wants to be with women and be involved in feminine works, the judgment is that the feminine sex predominates in him and then he should not be admitted to giving any witness wherever women are not admitted, namely at a last will and testament, neither can he be ordained then because a woman cannot receive holy orders. ”
Source: Ida Raming, The Exclusion of Women from the Priesthood, Scarecrow Press, Metuchen 1976, pp. 61-64.

http://www.womenpriests.org/theology/huguccio.asp
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RE: Papal History 2009/01/13 14:51:47 (permalink)
4.     In On Causa 33, quaestio 5, chapter 13, Huguccio writes that Man rather than woman is an image of God:

“On account of three reasons the man is said to be an image of God and not the woman. First of all: just as there is one God and from him everything arose, so one man was created from the beginning from whom all the others arose. Therefore to this extent he has a similarity with God namely that as everything proceeded from this one God so all other human beings proceed from this one man. Secondly just as from the side of Christ when he was sleeping in death on the cross the origin of the Church flowed namely water and blood through which are signified the sacraments of the Church through whom the Church subsists and has its origin and becomes the spouse of Christ, so from the side of Adam when he was sleeping in paradise was formed his spouse because from there was taken a rib, from which Eve was formed. Thirdly: just as Christ is head of the Church and governs the Church so the husband is head of his wife and rules and governs her. And through these three causes the man is stated to be the image of God and not the woman, and therefore the man must not be like the woman a sign of subjection, but a sign of freedom and preeminence. However, in a fourth way both the man and the woman are said to be an image of God, wherefore we have the expression ‘Let us make man’ that is ‘let us make him in our image and our likeness’ that is capable of the divine essence through reason, through the intellect, through memory, through genius and this is said both about the woman and the man.”

Source: Ida Raming, The Exclusion of Women from the Priesthood, Scarecrow Press, Metuchen 1976, pp. 61-64.

http://www.womenpriests.org/theology/huguccio.asp 
post edited by Sophie - 2009/01/13 15:03:53
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RE: Papal History 2009/01/13 14:54:38 (permalink)
 
5.    Again in his On Causa 33, quaestio 5, chapter 13, Huguccio writes about women, God’s glory was only truly revealed in the creation of man, not in the creation of woman:

"On account of three reasons a man is said to be the glory of God and not a woman. Firstly, because God appeared more powerful and more glorious in the creation of a man than of the woman, because it is especially through man that the glory of God is manifest because God made him by himself and from the slime of the earth against nature, but woman is made from the man. Secondly because the man was made by God without any intermediate tool, which is not the case with regard to woman. Thirdly because the man glorifies God directly, that is without any intermediary, whereas the woman only glorifies God through the man, because the man teaches and instructs the woman to glorify God”.
Source: Ida Raming, The Exclusion of Women from the Priesthood, Scarecrow Press, Metuchen 1976, pp. 61-64.

http://www.womenpriests.org/theology/huguccio.asp
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