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Papal History

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RE: Papal History 2009/01/16 20:05:53 (permalink)
a) his reference to 'violence in the service of truth' wasn't made in reference to the holocaust or to treatment of the indigenous peoples of the Americas.
b) 'violence in the service of truth' refers to the inquisition
b) for the inquisition, he wasn't defending the use of violence in the service of truth. He was condemning it.

The world is filled with instances -- both right and wrong -- of violence committed in the service of truth.

The 'actors' might actually be serving the truth --

or

The 'actors' might be mixed up about what the Truth actually is. eg, George Bush. I hear he has bought up boxes of apology cards now that he is starting to write personal apologies to every citizen of America.

Also, there is the question of degree and proportion that goes along with this question. In some situations, absolutely no violence is justified. In others its. When do I think it is? When police are arresting a perpetrator of rape who is trying to evade capture, some violence during an arrest is unavoidable.
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RE: Papal History 2009/01/16 21:30:34 (permalink)
If women throughout many centuries have been seen as not being in the image of God, then its no wonder that some people believe that a woman can not be in persona propria or in persona Christi.

These hundreds of years of horrible prejudice against women must come to an end.
Sophie
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RE: Papal History 2009/01/16 23:46:55 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: Guest

if your choices were no progress or progress by increments, which would you choose? 

seems like you feel that progress happening incrementally is completely unacceptable.

i'll take some progress over no progress. 



Dear friend,

Thanks for your comments.

There are many complexities in what we, along with many women and men are grappling with today.  I admit that often I have frustrated and angry with what seems to be a lack of progress.   Yet in spite of frustration and anger, when I look at the 'big picture,' I am convinced that when we examine the patterns of the last 50 or 60 years, we see a consistent sign that our consciousness is developing.  Whether it is in relation to societal or ecclesial issues, we will continue to gain clarity about:
  • equality between women and men
  • inclusion of women
  • Where did this come from?; and
  • Who is profiting from keeping it in place?
Our historical acceptance of dualities in our world view is crumbling. This true not just in society but in the Church, too. Though the shift is far from complete, when one compares the perspectives of old with the teachings of today, it is clear that a shift in attitudes towards women is happening. 

Yes.  There still are ceilings and walls that keep women out. But the placement of these ceilings and walls has shifted.  And whereas they once were like solid iron, they are now turning to glass.  Yes, glass is strong but it is different from iron -- both in strength and transparency. 

Things are changing.  As this process continues, I believe we are called to continue our faithfulness to the BEST in our Tradition and traditions.

with love and blessings,

~Sophie~
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RE: Papal History 2009/01/17 01:15:44 (permalink)
One thing I observe about Jesus was his willingness to be present to the brokenness of the world. He set about the work of redemption right in the middle of the mess so to speak. He didn't reject it or refuse to be part of it or go off to start a new 'structure' (which would eventually have its set of challenges and problems.)  Instead he came and humbled himself to be present in the midst of the "now.'”
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RE: Papal History 2009/01/17 02:27:43 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: Guest

ORIGINAL: Guest

ORIGINAL: Guest

Wasn't the incident with Sister Kane way back in 1978 or 79?


What is your point?



My point is that in 20 years, someone can change.  Because he did something wrong in 1978/9 does not therefore mean that his apology is without merit 20+ years later. 

Sorry, but he didn't change. The theology of the body is insulting to me as a woman. OS shows he was not sorry and did not change.
 
His apology comes across as a political maneuver to try and stop the negative fallout from OS.
 
I am appalled by OS. I am appalled by his treatment of Sister Kane. I am disgusted with his theology of the body.
 
He has made God masculine. He has claimed women’s spirits are too different than men’s spirits to be a priest.
 
This feminine genius is insulting. There is not masculine genius or feminine genius. There is genius…period.
 
I am not satisfied with a half baked apology. I expect more from these men who give the pretense of piety. If they want respect as spiritual leaders they need to walk the walk and ordain women now.
 
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RE: Papal History 2009/01/17 02:35:59 (permalink)
Rupert Sheldrake's (contemporary biologist, PhD) theory of morphic resonance, its place in the collective unconscious + how it 'creates/influences' change through the habits of  nature is a source of hope for me in work for change in the Church.

One of the species that drew his interest was the Blue Tit, a small blue European bird which is now sometimes
called a 'Cream Robber' because of a species pattern observed in it.  In England in about the 1920s, the "blue tit" was observed opening  the tops of delivered milk and cream bottles with its beak as the bottles sat waiting on residential doorsteps to be brought inside. The blue tits in England figured out how to puncture the aluminum foil lid of the bottle so that they could then sucked the cream out. This was observed to happen only rarely at first.
 
To understand just how amazing morphic resonance is, it is important to know about some features about the blue tit bird.  Its life span is only 2-3 years  and it does not migrate more than 3-4 miles from home territory. So -- doesn't live long and doesn't travel far.
 
Amazingly, by the end of the 1930's, all of England had been inundated with the back step blue tit milk thefts.  In other words, all the blue tit birds in England had caught on.

Though the bird does not fly across the English Channel, somehow, suddenly contemporaneously in the late 1930s, the blue tit birds of mainland Europe (Holland, Belgium etc) started mimicking their English cousins.

When 1939/WWII came, the mainland's milk supply system was completely disrupted.  This meant no milk
deliveries to customers doors which in turn meant the blue tit's milk bottle supply was cut off.

Not until late 1945 was the mainland milk system was re instituted.  L and lo and behold the blue tit's criminal instincts were immediately revived.  With great vigor, the milk robberies recommenced even though two-three generations of blue tits had had no experience in robbing milk.

These conversations about the Church brought morphic resonance and the blue tit bird to mind. 

The Vatican's exclusion of women is not God-given.  It is discrimination that rests on cultural practices that developed out of social prejudice against women.  Even though the Vatican tries to blame Jesus, the discrimination is not of Christ.

How can we help change happen?   Gandhi said, 'Be the change you want to see happen in the world.'  The blue tit birds are inspiration for me that if I start being the change, I am helping change to happen.  What has been observed in the blue-tit birds is that once critical mass is accomplished, adaptation automatically moves 'psychically' through the species.
 
Also, borrowing from the blue-tit bird studies, instead of discouraging ourselves and others, having conversations that acknowledge the truth and invite other people to engage, listen and think is important.  We want to help the other blue tit birds around us learn.
 
Though we might not be changing the mind of the Vatican, eventually when the blue tit bird critical
mass is reached, the Vatican will have no choice but to come along. 

If we ever feel overcome by frustration that 'we' can't effect the change, in the big picture, our
continuing contributions to critical thinking and engagement  and fostering hope with our community are absolutely crucial.

For all the reasons that this gives hope, there is reason to hope.

Our Lord is patient and merciful ... it is going to take a while yet to reach that "critical mass" ... this may not be in our lifetimes ... but we must keep praying and working for what we believe in conscience to be what humanity needs and, therefore, what God desires.
 
-m
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RE: Papal History 2009/01/17 02:37:24 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: Guest

a) his reference to 'violence in the service of truth' wasn't made in reference to the holocaust or to treatment of the indigenous peoples of the Americas.
b) 'violence in the service of truth' refers to the inquisition
b) for the inquisition, he wasn't defending the use of violence in the service of truth. He was condemning it.

The world is filled with instances -- both right and wrong -- of violence committed in the service of truth.

The 'actors' might actually be serving the truth --

or

The 'actors' might be mixed up about what the Truth actually is. eg, George Bush. I hear he has bought up boxes of apology cards now that he is starting to write personal apologies to every citizen of America.

Also, there is the question of degree and proportion that goes along with this question. In some situations, absolutely no violence is justified. In others its. When do I think it is? When police are arresting a perpetrator of rape who is trying to evade capture, some violence during an arrest is unavoidable.


 
Violence is never about truth. Violence never does service to truth.
 
 
The inquisition was never about truth. The inquisition was about power and control and bigotry and discrimination.
 
 
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RE: Papal History 2009/01/17 02:39:03 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: Guest

ORIGINAL: Guest

ORIGINAL: Guest

ORIGINAL: Guest

Wasn't the incident with Sister Kane way back in 1978 or 79?


What is your point?



My point is that in 20 years, someone can change.  Because he did something wrong in 1978/9 does not therefore mean that his apology is without merit 20+ years later. 

Sorry, but he didn't change. The theology of the body is insulting to me as a woman. OS shows he was not sorry and did not change.

His apology comes across as a political maneuver to try and stop the negative fallout from OS.

I am appalled by OS. I am appalled by his treatment of Sister Kane. I am disgusted with his theology of the body.

He has made God masculine. He has claimed women’s spirits are too different than men’s spirits to be a priest.

This feminine genius is insulting. There is not masculine genius or feminine genius. There is genius…period.

I am not satisfied with a half baked apology. I expect more from these men who give the pretense of piety. If they want respect as spiritual leaders they need to walk the walk and ordain women now.


 
What do you say to the fact that Sister Kane herself, the victim of his terrible treatment, applauded Pope John Paul for the changes in attitude she observed to happen in him over the years of his papacy?
 
Is she wrong to affirm the fact that he took steps forward even though they aren't all the steps that are needed?
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RE: Papal History 2009/01/17 02:40:33 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: Guest

ORIGINAL: Guest

a) his reference to 'violence in the service of truth' wasn't made in reference to the holocaust or to treatment of the indigenous peoples of the Americas.
b) 'violence in the service of truth' refers to the inquisition
b) for the inquisition, he wasn't defending the use of violence in the service of truth. He was condemning it.

The world is filled with instances -- both right and wrong -- of violence committed in the service of truth.

The 'actors' might actually be serving the truth --

or

The 'actors' might be mixed up about what the Truth actually is. eg, George Bush. I hear he has bought up boxes of apology cards now that he is starting to write personal apologies to every citizen of America.

Also, there is the question of degree and proportion that goes along with this question. In some situations, absolutely no violence is justified. In others its. When do I think it is? When police are arresting a perpetrator of rape who is trying to evade capture, some violence during an arrest is unavoidable.



Violence is never about truth. Violence never does service to truth.


The inquisition was never about truth. The inquisition was about power and control and bigotry and discrimination.



 
 
So it is your position that when police are arresting a rapist who is not going along willingly that they are not serving truth?  That instead they should just let the rapist get away?
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RE: Papal History 2009/01/17 02:44:50 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: Guest

ORIGINAL: Guest

ORIGINAL: Guest

a) his reference to 'violence in the service of truth' wasn't made in reference to the holocaust or to treatment of the indigenous peoples of the Americas.
b) 'violence in the service of truth' refers to the inquisition
b) for the inquisition, he wasn't defending the use of violence in the service of truth. He was condemning it.

The world is filled with instances -- both right and wrong -- of violence committed in the service of truth.

The 'actors' might actually be serving the truth --

or

The 'actors' might be mixed up about what the Truth actually is. eg, George Bush. I hear he has bought up boxes of apology cards now that he is starting to write personal apologies to every citizen of America.

Also, there is the question of degree and proportion that goes along with this question. In some situations, absolutely no violence is justified. In others its. When do I think it is? When police are arresting a perpetrator of rape who is trying to evade capture, some violence during an arrest is unavoidable.



Violence is never about truth. Violence never does service to truth.


The inquisition was never about truth. The inquisition was about power and control and bigotry and discrimination.





So it is your position that when police are arresting a rapist who is not going along willingly that they are not serving truth?  That instead they should just let the rapist get away?

 
You think the victims of the inquisition were criminals?
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RE: Papal History 2009/01/17 02:50:16 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: Guest

ORIGINAL: Guest

ORIGINAL: Guest

ORIGINAL: Guest

ORIGINAL: Guest

Wasn't the incident with Sister Kane way back in 1978 or 79?


What is your point?



My point is that in 20 years, someone can change.  Because he did something wrong in 1978/9 does not therefore mean that his apology is without merit 20+ years later. 

Sorry, but he didn't change. The theology of the body is insulting to me as a woman. OS shows he was not sorry and did not change.

His apology comes across as a political maneuver to try and stop the negative fallout from OS.

I am appalled by OS. I am appalled by his treatment of Sister Kane. I am disgusted with his theology of the body.

He has made God masculine. He has claimed women’s spirits are too different than men’s spirits to be a priest.

This feminine genius is insulting. There is not masculine genius or feminine genius. There is genius…period.

I am not satisfied with a half baked apology. I expect more from these men who give the pretense of piety. If they want respect as spiritual leaders they need to walk the walk and ordain women now.



What do you say to the fact that Sister Kane herself, the victim of his terrible treatment, applauded Pope John Paul for the changes in attitude she observed to happen in him over the years of his papacy?

Is she wrong to affirm the fact that he took steps forward even though they aren't all the steps that are needed?

If she did forgive him it shows her gracious heart. It does not change him. She, like you, may want to believe his apology meant he changed, however he did not change where it counts.
 
His apology does not ring true to me. He presented empty platitudes to deceive women but his actions were a contradiction.
 
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RE: Papal History 2009/01/17 02:50:27 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: Guest

ORIGINAL: Guest

ORIGINAL: Guest

ORIGINAL: Guest

ORIGINAL: Guest

Wasn't the incident with Sister Kane way back in 1978 or 79?


What is your point?



My point is that in 20 years, someone can change.  Because he did something wrong in 1978/9 does not therefore mean that his apology is without merit 20+ years later. 

Sorry, but he didn't change. The theology of the body is insulting to me as a woman. OS shows he was not sorry and did not change.

His apology comes across as a political maneuver to try and stop the negative fallout from OS.

I am appalled by OS. I am appalled by his treatment of Sister Kane. I am disgusted with his theology of the body.

He has made God masculine. He has claimed women’s spirits are too different than men’s spirits to be a priest.

This feminine genius is insulting. There is not masculine genius or feminine genius. There is genius…period.

I am not satisfied with a half baked apology. I expect more from these men who give the pretense of piety. If they want respect as spiritual leaders they need to walk the walk and ordain women now.



What do you say to the fact that Sister Kane herself, the victim of his terrible treatment, applauded Pope John Paul for the changes in attitude she observed to happen in him over the years of his papacy?

Is she wrong to affirm the fact that he took steps forward even though they aren't all the steps that are needed?

 
 
Do you disagree with Sister Theresa Kane?  Is she wrong to say that he changed?:
 
Looking back to the 1979 papal visit, Kane said she thought that the pope arrived in the United States with a "very cloistered" view of religious life. His view was of "sisters in their convents going about their prayer life." He was not familiar with nuns out and about their work in society, "not familiar with the active apostolate we had moved into, actively questioning the systems and unjust structures as we have," she said.

The feeling in Rome, she said, was that the sisters had become too secular. Twenty years later, however, Kane -- who after completing terms as leadership conference president and president of the order, went into campus ministry before teaching -- believes "the pope has been listening."

"I think he's a listening person," she said. "I certainly think he's moved in terms of the roles of women in society -- very strongly on abuses against women in society: prostitution, slave labor, sexual abuse and about women being very much needed in church ministry.

"He's not moving at all into ordination," she said, "but I thought he might move on the role of women and the diaconate. He's aware of it. And he still might. I've a feeling he's going to want to do something like that before he dies. It makes sense. The very fact that he sent a message to me says there's movement in him."
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RE: Papal History 2009/01/17 02:50:50 (permalink)
Sister Theresa Kane is half baked?
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RE: Papal History 2009/01/17 02:54:31 (permalink)
PS. Violence is not what the police are supposed to be about. Torture is immoral in my opinion. 
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RE: Papal History 2009/01/17 02:55:25 (permalink)
He presented empty platitudes to deceive women but his actions were a contradiction.

 
I don't agree with your assessment.
 
He delivered this message on an international stage. This wasn't some secret backroom pay off.  He made a statement in the public on the international stage.  It is now something that can be held against the Vatican.  They can't take it back.  Though it is not the whole journey towards the destination, it is a step in the right direction.  If we insist that it was false, half baked, etc, aren't we are simply endorsing their right to withdraw the statement.  "You didn't mean it therefore you take it back?"
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RE: Papal History 2009/01/17 02:57:46 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: Guest

Sister Theresa Kane is half baked?

 
Your words not mine. No I don't. I think JPII's apology is half baked.
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RE: Papal History 2009/01/17 02:58:58 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: Guest

PS. Violence is not what the police are supposed to be about. Torture is immoral in my opinion. 

 
I am not talking about torture.
 
Have you never seen someone who is resisting being arrested?  The police aren't exactly serving tea when they are doing this kind of job which needs to be done.
 
The problem with conversations here is that people are so extremist in their interpretations.  Talk about an ordinary arrest and all of a sudden it is turned into an incident of torture.  Good grief.  Arresting criminals is part of the duty of the most moral upstanding law abiding honourable police officers there are.  When they do this job in the most honourable, upright, upstanding, law abiding, transparent, impecable way possible, violence is still involved. 
 
What is your proposal to avoid it?  "Please Mr. Rapist.  Please step into this car so that we can take you down to the station for crumpets and tea while we fill out some documents to get the process started for your trial?"
 
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RE: Papal History 2009/01/17 02:59:47 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: Guest

He presented empty platitudes to deceive women but his actions were a contradiction.


I don't agree with your assessment.

He delivered this message on an international stage. This wasn't some secret backroom pay off.  He made a statement in the public on the international stage.  It is now something that can be held against the Vatican.  They can't take it back.  Though it is not the whole journey towards the destination, it is a step in the right direction.  If we insist that it was false, half baked, etc, aren't we are simply endorsing their right to withdraw the statement.  "You didn't mean it therefore you take it back?"

 
You are totally missing my point. I question his sincerity. He spoke out of two sides of his mouth.
 
He did not inspire me.
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RE: Papal History 2009/01/17 03:00:49 (permalink)
Trying to discuss things with extremists is impossible.
 
No conversation.  Just extreme reaction.
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RE: Papal History 2009/01/17 03:02:54 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: Guest

ORIGINAL: Guest

PS. Violence is not what the police are supposed to be about. Torture is immoral in my opinion. 


I am not talking about torture.

Have you never seen someone who is resisting being arrested?  The police aren't exactly serving tea when they are doing this kind of job which needs to be done.

The problem with conversations here is that people are so extremist in their interpretations.  Talk about an ordinary arrest and all of a sudden it is turned into an incident of torture.  Good grief.  Arresting criminals is part of the duty of the most moral upstanding law abiding honourable police officers there are.  When they do this job in the most honourable, upright, upstanding, law abiding, transparent, impecable way possible, violence is still involved. 

What is your proposal to avoid it?  "Please Mr. Rapist.  Please step into this car so that we can take you down to the station for crumpets and tea while we fill out some documents to get the process started for your trial?"


You were talking about the inquisition and violence.
 
The police do not commit violence, at least they are not supposed to commit violence. They exert force to restrain. They should not beat and torture. I know some do but this is not acceptable behavior.
 
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