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Women Priests as Viewed from Scripture

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RE: Women Priests as Viewed from Scripture 2007/08/23 07:05:05 (permalink)
  Yes the church has authority to confer priesthood on pedophiles who the church protects and even hides in the Vatican from prosecution for their crimes against children. 
 
   The church has authority to deny ordination to an entire sex, women, solely by sexual discrimination and with NO scriptural basis as PROVED by Pontifical  Investigation.
 
    Your arguments are hollow and merely show all the more the vile dishonesty and misogyny of the exclusion of women from priesthood and how much this deviates from Jesus.
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RE: Women Priests as Viewed from Scripture 2007/08/23 07:11:30 (permalink)
  Yes criminal abuse of authority and criminal negligence is what we have witnessed from Rome and the Vatican as they conferred priesthood on known pedophiles and covered up their crimes and moved these pedophile male priests from parish to parish, even country to country.
 
   The church has no authority whatsoever in light of the tremendous abuse of power perpetrated by the Vatican and local Roman Catholic bishops, priests and archbishops.
 
    Oh how we need to help our church follow Jesus and ordain women to the priesthood!
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RE: Women Priests as Viewed from Scripture 2007/08/26 04:30:27 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: Guest

Genesis 3:1-16 shows that the woman allowed the serpent, representing Satan, to beguile her into disobeying her Creator, God. And she thereupon caused her husband, whom she was supposed to help, to disobey God also and cut himself off from God’s blessings.
The woman had taken the initiative. She had tried to lead the man - a thing for which she was not intended nor equipped - and as a result the whole human family was cut off from God until Christ came to obey God and make reconciliation.

Because she had sinned in doing this thing, God told the woman, "I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception, in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall RULE over thee" (Gen. 3:16).

Plain words, these. And these are God’s words - not human opinion. God had made the man first - in His direct image,  God had made the man physically stronger, and with every necessary quality to be the woman’s leader. Adam knew that the woman was to be his helper - and he her head.


 
With respect to denying women Holy Orders:
 
How does one claim that a woman is in a natural state of submission because she has less brute strength than a man, that she was not intended nor is she equipped to take initiative and lead a man, that man shall rule over woman because she committed the moral transgression first and led the man astray; and then claim that it is not about being inferior?
 
How can any sane woman with a minimum of average intelligence believe this?
 
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RE: Women Priests as Viewed from Scripture 2007/08/26 04:45:23 (permalink)
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This is Why Woman Was Created  


After God had created the man, He said, "It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an HELP meet (suitable) for him" (Gen. 2:18). Finding that none of the animal creation fitted this need, God created woman out of a part of man. And Adam said, "This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of man" (Verse 23).
 
Notice that the very purpose of woman’s creation was to provide a help for the man. But on the first occasion when man had a severe trial and needed help, what happened?

Genesis 3:1-16 shows that the woman allowed the serpent, representing Satan, to beguile her into disobeying her Creator, God. And she thereupon caused her husband, whom she was supposed to help, to disobey God also and cut himself off from God’s blessings.
The woman had taken the initiative. She had tried to lead the man - a thing for which she was not intended nor equipped - and as a result the whole human family was cut off from God until Christ came to obey God and make reconciliation.

Because she had sinned in doing this thing, God told the woman, "I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception, in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall RULE over thee" (Gen. 3:16).

Plain words, these. And these are God’s words - not human opinion. God had made the man first - in His direct image,  God had made the man physically stronger, and with every necessary quality to be the woman’s leader. Adam knew that the woman was to be his helper - and he her head.
But now that the woman had taken the initiative without consulting her husband, and had sinned and led him to sin in so doing, God made their status doubly CLEAR: "thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall RULE over thee."
Adam had not fulfilled his God-given responsibility to lead the woman in the right way, but had let her wrest the initiative from him. And so God told Adam, "Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake, in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life" (Gen. 3:17). Yes, Adam was punished "Because," God said, "thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife" - and so had been led to disobey God.

1 Corinthians 11:2-16: "Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you. But I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head. But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven. For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered. For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man

Seems your group here is bent on taking the fruit once more from the perpetual tree of knowledge. Trying to lead mankind into defying God laws...again.




Hello,

I am not clear as to what position you are here to advocate in terms of women priests in the Roman Catholic Church.  The biblical perspectives you espouse are not shared even by those who attempt to argue against women's ordination from the Vatican's point of view.

Can you please clarify:  are you Roman Catholic?   or is it your hope to contribute to discussion from an other than Roman Catholic point of view?

I look forward to hearing from you.

In Christ's peace,
Therese
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RE: Women Priests as Viewed from Scripture 2007/08/26 05:31:18 (permalink)
  Biblical scriptural textual scholars agree that the anti-woman quotes you present from Timothy and Titus are NOT original and can NOT be attributed to Paul.
   The misogynist passages you quote that order women to be silent and submissive CONTRADICT the rest of the passages where Paul PRAISES women for preaching and praying and prophesing ALOUD IN ASSEMBLY, no restrictions placed on women by Paul.
   These misogynist passages are LATER scribal INSERTIONS and ADDITIONS that derive from PAGAN ROMAN CIVIL LAW not from Paul or Jesus and also from misogynist medieval writers who did not approve of women.
    Thank goodness Jesus does not agree with this denial and belittling and restriction of women, women apostles and women disciples and women were appreciated, commissioned and praised by Jesus to be preachers, prophets, disciples, apostles,anointers, missionaries , and to do all that the men did in our church.
  Ordain women and give them the respect and dignity that Jesus gave them  to also be "fellow workers in Christ."
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RE: Women Priests as Viewed from Scripture 2007/08/26 05:47:30 (permalink)
Does the Vatican contend that a husband is head of his wife like Christ is head of the Church? If so this does not make men and women equal in marriage since Christ is not equal to the Church.
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RE: Women Priests as Viewed from Scripture 2007/08/26 13:06:33 (permalink)
  Jesus NEVER said that the man is head of the marriage. 
 
 Paul refers to covering the head of the woman as a sign of respect and modesty. Roman civil culture had women of modesty covering their hair in public.
 
    This does NOT come from Jesus.  Paul is NOT Jesus. Paul's opinions come from Paul.
  
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RE: Women Priests as Viewed from Scripture 2007/08/26 13:26:32 (permalink)
  Jesus praised the Samaritan woman preaching aloud in assembly to Samaria, praised her preaching to his astonished male disciples.
 
   Clearly Jesus emancipated women and called women to preach aloud in assembly to all the community, to do all that the men did.
    Jesus continued to give her the living waters of faith, to teach her profound theology conscepts even though Jesus shows clearly that he is fully aware she lives with a boyfriend and had five previous husbands.  He establishes  that he is a Prophet and the Messiah and that to him all are new in God and  there is no male or female, no slave or free distinctions, all are one in God, all are equal in God's love.
 
    Jesus never made women silent or submissive to men.  Never.  Jesus emancipated and commissioned
 
women to preach and be witnesses to resurrection and to speak aloud in the community.
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RE: Women Priests as Viewed from Scripture 2007/08/26 13:55:30 (permalink)
  Jesus says to help us against those who slander us and try to defy the Gospel of God and Jesus and the work of the Holy Spirit,  Jesus says in Luke that he will "give us a mouth of wisdom."
 
   When we look at the New Testament we continually see proof from Jesus that women are to speak aloud in assembly and not be silent, women are to do all that the men do.  Ordain women too.  Be the Christ to others and follow the teachings, tradition and actions of Jesus by letting women carry out the same tasks Jesus granted 2000 years ago: Fellow Co-Workers in Christ.  No exclusion.
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RE: Women Priests as Viewed from Scripture 2007/08/26 14:26:54 (permalink)
  A major part of Christ's mission was to correct the erroneous interpretation of Genesis.
  Jesus showed the world that women are NOT evil "Eves". Women do not lead men into sin.
  Jesus showed the world that women are worthy and truly able to be co-workers in the Gospel.
  Jesus showed the world that all is new and women are able and sanctified to preach, anoint, prophesy, pray, be witnesses and church leaders, apostles and disciples: do all that the men do.
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RE: Women Priests as Viewed from Scripture 2007/08/26 16:22:43 (permalink)
  The Pope says Jesus and God are his supreme authority.
   The Pope must obey Jesus and respect women too and ordain women because Jesus did not exclude women or restrict what women do in the church of his time or the Early Church.
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RE: Women Priests as Viewed from Scripture 2007/08/26 18:02:00 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: Guest

This is Why Woman Was Created  


After God had created the man, He said, "It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an HELP meet (suitable) for him" (Gen. 2:18). Finding that none of the animal creation fitted this need, God created woman out of a part of man. And Adam said, "This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of man" (Verse 23).
 
Notice that the very purpose of woman’s creation was to provide a help for the man. But on the first occasion when man had a severe trial and needed help, what happened?

Genesis 3:1-16 shows that the woman allowed the serpent, representing Satan, to beguile her into disobeying her Creator, God. And she thereupon caused her husband, whom she was supposed to help, to disobey God also and cut himself off from God’s blessings.
The woman had taken the initiative. She had tried to lead the man - a thing for which she was not intended nor equipped - and as a result the whole human family was cut off from God until Christ came to obey God and make reconciliation.

Because she had sinned in doing this thing, God told the woman, "I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception, in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall RULE over thee" (Gen. 3:16).

Plain words, these. And these are God’s words - not human opinion. God had made the man first - in His direct image,  God had made the man physically stronger, and with every necessary quality to be the woman’s leader. Adam knew that the woman was to be his helper - and he her head.
But now that the woman had taken the initiative without consulting her husband, and had sinned and led him to sin in so doing, God made their status doubly CLEAR: "thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall RULE over thee."
Adam had not fulfilled his God-given responsibility to lead the woman in the right way, but had let her wrest the initiative from him. And so God told Adam, "Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake, in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life" (Gen. 3:17). Yes, Adam was punished "Because," God said, "thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife" - and so had been led to disobey God.

1 Corinthians 11:2-16: "Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you. But I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head. But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven. For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered. For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man

Seems your group here is bent on taking the fruit once more from the perpetual tree of knowledge. Trying to lead mankind into defying God laws...again.





Hello,

Though I do believe scripture contains the Word of God, because it is delivered through the filter of the human hand, one must approach it with critical appreciation for the culture and origins of the human writers.  One must keep in mind that the human writers laboured under the influence of the societal dynamics of their times.  One of the purposes of scripture is to provide an avenue for God to be in dialogue with the human community as it spans across time and the world.  Personal opinions of the writers, distortions in the text due to translation and changes that have been made to text over the course of time, cultural and political circumstances of the human writers all must be kept in mind...when attempting to discern what it is that God is saying.  If we are wise, we learn from the past and remember that literal interpretations of scripture have been used to condone evils such as slavery.  Literal interpretations are not in every instance safe to follow.  Discernment must be applied to the text.

It is true.  The texts you quote above were at one time and still in some murky corners of society used to subjugate women.  Plenty of efforts are being made (just as they were with the abolition of slavery) to close the doors to acceptance of literal interpretations of these texts that work to support discrimination against women.

It is distorted thinking to say that women are subservient to men.Consider Pope Benedict's message for the 2007 World Day of Peace:  


Pope Benedict XVI Links Women's Equality to Peace

  VATICAN CITY, DEC. 12, 2006 (Zenit.org).- Benedict XVI warns that peace becomes a mirage when the dignity of woman is not fully respected.     The papal warning is included in the message for the World Day of Peace, to be observed Jan. 1. The day's theme, "The Human Person, Heart of Peace," addresses the challenge posed by the equality of nature of all people.

  "Insufficient consideration of the feminine condition also causes factors of instability in the social order," states the message.     In particular, the Pope mentions "the exploitation of women treated as objects and in so many ways of lack of respect to their dignity."

  In particular, the Holy Father unmasks the persistent conceptions in some cultures "which still assign to woman a role of great submission to the discretion of the man, with consequences offensive to her dignity of person and [the] exercise of the fundamental liberties. One must not fall into the illusion that peace is assured while these forms of discrimination are not also overcome," he notes. Such forms "lacerate the personal dignity inscribed by the Creator in every human being."

If we cling to the old messages those texts were used to advance, then we ourselves become obstacles to world peace.   Christ came to bring us peace. We are called to be peacemakers. By extension to what Pope Benedict says, someone who is an obstacle to women's equality is then an obstacle to world peace, too ... and by extension, an obstacle to Christ.  

pondering,
Therese
post edited by Therese - 2007/08/26 22:43:57
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RE: Women Priests as Viewed from Scripture 2007/08/26 19:09:30 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: Guest

Does the Vatican contend that a husband is head of his wife like Christ is head of the Church? If so this does not make men and women equal in marriage since Christ is not equal to the Church.

 
Allow me to clarify my intent in asking this question.
 
I know Jesus did not say this but our Church recently distributed Holy Cards with a prayer for the vocation of marriage. Though not stated explicitly, there was an implicit comparison between husband and wife and Christ and the Church. (i.e. husband = Christ and wife = Church).
 
After hearing the arguments against ordination of women, it seems that the Church is still advancing this antiquated notion of a marital union  (that is a husband head of his wife instead of equal partners). For me as a Catholic this is quite discouraging.
 
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RE: Women Priests as Viewed from Scripture 2007/08/26 20:42:18 (permalink)
 Thanks for the clarification.  It is disturbing that this is distributed.  Jesus does NOT say that he is head of the church or the judge of us either.
  Jesus defers to God as supreme and defers to God as judge of our souls.
  The New Testament is a treasure our church must stop distorting and twisting to serve its anti-woman agenda.
   If you would like the quotes from the New Testament about this I can find them for you .  My children and I need to check out back to school suppies, so if you need bible quotes about this let me know and when I get time I will post them for you.
   The bible is truly a treasure and reveals that women are to be treated with dignity, respect and equality according to Jesus.  We are marriage and life partners as husband and wife and also as co-workers in the church of Jesus and God and the Holy Spirit.  Ordain women too.
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RE: Women Priests as Viewed from Scripture 2007/08/26 20:49:10 (permalink)
  Will they be promoting in church soon that subjugation and beating of women in marriage is also sanctioned by the church?  Jesus does NOT obsess that he is the "bridegroom" of our church.
  The church is ignoring his other powerful metaphors:
                                                                          Mother Hen
                                                                          Widow finding lost coin
                                                                          Good Shepherd finding lost sheep
                                                                          Good Steward
                                                                          Bakerwoman
                                                                          Vine and we are the branches
 
          Why? Because they do not promote misogyny?
          What talk about Latin mass is there for your parish?    Thanks for the information!
 
                                                                           
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RE: Women Priests as Viewed from Scripture 2007/08/26 23:57:47 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: Guest

This is Why Woman Was Created  


After God had created the man, He said, "It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an HELP meet (suitable) for him" (Gen. 2:18). Finding that none of the animal creation fitted this need, God created woman out of a part of man. And Adam said, "This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of man" (Verse 23).
 
Notice that the very purpose of woman’s creation was to provide a help for the man. But on the first occasion when man had a severe trial and needed help, what happened?

Genesis 3:1-16 shows that the woman allowed the serpent, representing Satan, to beguile her into disobeying her Creator, God. And she thereupon caused her husband, whom she was supposed to help, to disobey God also and cut himself off from God’s blessings.
The woman had taken the initiative. She had tried to lead the man - a thing for which she was not intended nor equipped - and as a result the whole human family was cut off from God until Christ came to obey God and make reconciliation.

Because she had sinned in doing this thing, God told the woman, "I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception, in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall RULE over thee" (Gen. 3:16).

Plain words, these. And these are God’s words - not human opinion. God had made the man first - in His direct image,  God had made the man physically stronger, and with every necessary quality to be the woman’s leader. Adam knew that the woman was to be his helper - and he her head.
But now that the woman had taken the initiative without consulting her husband, and had sinned and led him to sin in so doing, God made their status doubly CLEAR: "thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall RULE over thee."
Adam had not fulfilled his God-given responsibility to lead the woman in the right way, but had let her wrest the initiative from him. And so God told Adam, "Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake, in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life" (Gen. 3:17). Yes, Adam was punished "Because," God said, "thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife" - and so had been led to disobey God.

1 Corinthians 11:2-16: "Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you. But I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head. But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven. For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered. For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man

Seems your group here is bent on taking the fruit once more from the perpetual tree of knowledge. Trying to lead mankind into defying God laws...again.



 
A problem I observe in what I understand you to be saying is this.
 
If you accept this one of the two creation stories in Genesis to be factually true -- ie, that woman came from man (ie Eve came from the rib of Adam), Adam is the only man in the entire history of the earth who did not come from woman.
 
As 1 Corinthians 11: 12  points out:

as woman came from man, so man is born of woman; but all things are from God.

We are all from God.  We are all made in God's image.  We are all equal in God's eyes...which one might say means that subscribings to the mumbo jumbo of 'men are superior' ideology puts one out of touch with the depth  and breadth of what scripture has to say.
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RE: Women Priests as Viewed from Scripture 2007/08/27 00:16:38 (permalink)
The fact that there are two different creation stories suggests to me that we are not supposed to get too hung up on the stories as being 'factual.'  The Truth the stories deliver = we are blessed with a Creator God.  All things are from God.
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RE: Women Priests as Viewed from Scripture 2007/08/27 05:04:09 (permalink)
Dear friends,

A focused department of our website that will be helpful to discussion here is called The Ordination of Women and Sacred Scripture. In terms of current discussion here, some highlights  from the section include four rules for interpreting Scripture correctly.  They ask us to pay heed to:
  1. The literal sense.
  2. Literary form. 
  3. Intended scope.
  4. Rationalizations.

Our Academic Advisor, scripture scholar Dr. Wijngaards* elaborates on each of these important points to keep in mind when discerning scripture.  He goes into greater detail through the following:

The link to the complete article is here: http://www.womenpriests.org/scriptur/scrip-ov.asp.  In terms of focus on interpretation, see part 1 of the article.  More to follow!

with love and blessings,
~Sophie~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

* Short biographical data of Dr. Wijngaards, founder of and Academic Advisor to www.womenpriests.org:

 
  • 1959: ordained a priest as a Mill Hill Missionary.
  • 1959 - 1963: studies in Rome. Licenciate of Sacred Scripture at the Pontifical Biblical Institute and Doctorate of Divinity at the Gregorian University.
  • 1963 - 1976: missionary in India. Lecturer at St. John's major Seminary, Hyderabad.
  • 1976 - 1982: Vicar General of the Mill Hill Missionaries.
  • 1983 - now: lecturer at the Missionary Institute London, which is affiliated both to the Catholic University of Louvain in Belgium and Middlesex University in London. I am at present on a sabbatical.
  • 1982 - now: director of Housetop International Centre for Faith Formation in London.

For more about Dr. Wijngaards, see:

Dr. Wijngaards is the winner of the Marga Klompé Award 2005 in recognition of his work for renewal of the ministry in the Roman Catholic Church, in particular for his academic campaign in support of opening the ordained ministries to women

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RE: Women Priests as Viewed from Scripture 2007/08/27 05:35:07 (permalink)
Dear friends,

Two additional highlights from our library document The Ordination of Women and Sacred Scripture which should be pointed out it the context of discussion here are:

From a broader perspective, the document highlighted here is one of several related ones in our library.  This particular article about the creation stories is in the library section that explores the circumstances of women in the Old Testament times -- 1,000 BC - 30 AD.  This was an era when men dominated in both society and religion.  Scroll down the page found at http://www.womenpriests.org/scriptur/scrip-ov.asp to the Old Testament section if you are interested in exploring more in a range of academic material about male domination in Old Testament times.

Then, scrolling down a little further on that page, you will come to a website section about St. Paul.  See Women in the Early Apostolic Church - 30 AD - 80 AD. It is here we learn that Paul actually endorsed the fundamental equality in Christ of women and men. During his time, women took part in the Church's apostolate. We learn that he asked women to wear a veil in the assembly to forestall cultural clashes.  Some of the highlighted points here include:

More to follow.  On behalf of all of us, I send a big thank you to Dr. Wijngaads and members of the academic section of our Team for all their efforts in opening doors of understanding for us.

with love and blessings,
~Sophie~
post edited by Sophie - 2007/08/27 16:12:12
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RE: Women Priests as Viewed from Scripture 2007/08/27 16:02:12 (permalink)
  Thanks for posting Dr. Wijngaards articles about Creation Stories, Paul's Equality of Women. Pseudo-Paul passages, Wearing of Veil, Man-Woman Relationship.
 
   The articles by Dr. Wijngaards  are very good.  It is wonderful to note :that the sin of man trying to lord it over women, trying to bully and abuse women into subjugation is a consequence of sin.
 
   The sins of pride (man not being humble or compassionate, not sharing governance),
 
    the sins of greed  and avarice (exploiting women, denying women their rights
 
   and their needs and denying children the child's rights or the needs of the children)
 
      Instead Dr. Wijngaards shows us how the Creation stories and the words of Paul and of Jesus  show the equality of men and women.
 
 
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