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Women Priests as Viewed from Scripture

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Sophie
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RE: Women Priests as Viewed from Scripture 2007/06/28 04:26:41 (permalink)
 
 
 
 
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Dear Jill An amazing idea that the "husbands are gods" that they worshipped. So it could be allegorical

 
 If you compare the style of writing in 4G to the Synoptics, you will be able to tell that it is not being written as the same type of account. It is laid out by the signs being presented, which are all representative and allegorical in nature.

Yes, if the Samaritans have worshipped various gods during their captivity, then the Samaritan woman represents the collective culpability of her people, their “five husbands”. Since she is chosen to take Christ’s message to her people, she becomes the first evalgelist to spread the gospel message.
 
Jesus is so patient and compassionate as he invites her to a newer understanding - God is Spirit. How does Sanford interpret if Jesus baptises her in the "living waters of faith"? This well that bubbles up from within, this is the kingdom within?

 
It seems to me that Sanford is saying that it is evident that she’s received the living water because she’s taken it immediately to her people who, though they cannot take a woman’s word for it since a woman cannot be a legal witness, they all go and discover it for themselves, an thus the whole town in converted.
 
Does he say why a woman is chosen as receiver of Messiah news and to be Gentile preacher? Is this new to choose a woman, or just repressed information as Old Testament does have mention of some women prophets and judges.

 
I don’t remember if Sanford makes specific comment as to why a woman would be chosen, but if the church is the “bride” then it is obvious that a woman receives the Good News. (4G also has Mary Magdalene as the 1st recipient and first apostle to receive the news of the risen Christ.) It would seem that women have less ego to get out of the way.

Does Sanford shed light on the equality Jesus gives to women? What do you think of Jung's ideas? I quickly scanned his 4 Archetypes book and I really liked it. This field is new to me. How did you come to conclusion it can refer to 4 gods formerly worshipped? Waves of invaders' gods? Sumerian, Babylonian, Akkadian ???


 
I’m sorry that I don’t have the time to address every question that you pose. The ‘five gods’ idea seems to be a logical conclusion because the Samaritans were being shunned precisely for having followed various false religions during the Babylonian captivity. This has been proposed by several exegetes of the Fourth Gospel. Can’t remember who might have addressed this, (Pilch may have been one of them).
 
Is this-John text- considered Gnostic flavour to it by anyone you have read?



 
Yes. Many NT scholars recognize that it has a Gnostic flavor; in fact, most mainstream scholars do.

The Mark gospel has Jesus silent through most of crucifixion, overtones like the Gnostic Gospel of Judas newly published text. Did this text influence the writing of Mark gospel or vice versa?


 
The trial scene with Pilot seems to say it all. In it, Jesus tells Pilot, “I came into the world for this: to bear witness to the truth”.
 
Where did you learn this? It sounds very interesting! from Connie


 
It would be hard to pin it down after nearly thirty years of study on this gospel. The thing is, if one is speaking of "gnosis", the information on this gospel is not learned simply by taking a course or reading a few authors. It is hard won through lectio divina over a long period of time, and it continues to unfold.

Please buy the book or borrow one from your library. I’m sure it will answer many questions, but will raise new ones to take their place. ;-)

Jill

I guess this post will get moved to some other location

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RE: Women Priests as Viewed from Scripture 2007/06/28 04:27:45 (permalink)
 
 
 
 
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One little PS:

After gathering his disciples, Jesus attends the Wedding at Cana and the water to wine incident is precipitated by the words of a woman, his mother. Following that, he cleanses the Temple, discourses with Nicodemus over the idea of "again" or "from above". Then he goes out to gather in the lost tribes, going directly to the Samaritan woman at the well. What has taken place at the Cana event is now being manifested elsewhere. Note that the question about a 'husband' is followed by where one is to worship. It will not be on that mountain or in Jerusalem. It is spreading out to the whole world. Worship will be within the heart of the believers. The "Bride" will find the true "Husband" through the living water Jesus offers. The Kingdom is being manifested.
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RE: Women Priests as Viewed from Scripture 2007/06/28 04:28:39 (permalink)
 
 
 
 
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The Living Waters of Faith satisfy spiritual Thirst  and are not sexual   and not about a nuptial wedding.
 
 Jesus drives the point home by telling the returning disciples who went to buy food, Jesus is not hungry-- his food is to do the will of God, to choose the preacher the Samaritan woman who teaches her community about Jesus. 

       Samaritan Woman provides spiritual nourishment to Jesus and the world of the GentilesNot church as "Bride" but Woman as Co-Worker in Faith.           from Connie  
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RE: Women Priests as Viewed from Scripture 2007/06/28 04:38:04 (permalink)
 
 
 
 
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ORIGINAL: Guest

 The Living Waters of Faith satisfy spiritual Thirst  and are not sexual   and not about a nuptial wedding.
 
 Jesus drives the point home by telling the returning disciples who went to buy food, Jesus is not hungry-- his food is to do the will of God, to choose the preacher the Samaritan woman who teaches her community about Jesus. 

       Samaritan Woman provides spiritual nourishment to Jesus and the world of the GentilesNot church as "Bride" but Woman as Co-Worker in Faith.           from Connie  


 
What do you make of John the Baptist's quote, "The one who has the bride is the bridegroom; the best man, who stands and listens for him, rejoices greatly at the bridegroom's voice."? (John 3:29)
 
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RE: Women Priests as Viewed from Scripture 2007/06/28 04:39:34 (permalink)
 
 
 
 
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The reason I emphasize this is I find it alarmingly wrong how the current church homosexualizes falsely the Eucharist using the """theology?????"""""   of Van Balthasar that claims eucharist is a male orgasm self-giving fantasy instead of the body and blood of Jesus as host -bread- and wine--

        Spiritual nourishment of Jesus's gift of self of body-bread and blood-wine-  is NOT a sex act or homoerotic nuptial wedding sex activity as Balthasar claims in order to claim women can not be priests as he claims women  are not male and lack this organ of " self-giving" activity--sounds like male masturbation is what  this "theologian" now claims is the Eucharist. 

        No church as Bride images please! An abomination of an image now!  Church as congregation of believers in Jesus and God, yes.     Connie
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RE: Women Priests as Viewed from Scripture 2007/06/28 04:54:34 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: Guest

The Living Waters of Faith satisfy spiritual Thirst  and are not sexual   and not about a nuptial wedding.
 
 Jesus drives the point home by telling the returning disciples who went to buy food, Jesus is not hungry-- his food is to do the will of God, to choose the preacher the Samaritan woman who teaches her community about Jesus. 

      Samaritan Woman provides spiritual nourishment to Jesus and the world of the GentilesNot church as "Bride" but Woman as Co-Worker in Faith.           from Connie  



What do you make of John the Baptist's quote, "The one who has the bride is the bridegroom; the best man, who stands and listens for him, rejoices greatly at the bridegroom's voice."? (John 3:29)

Guest


See also: Isaiah 49:18, 61:10, 62:5; Jeremiah 2:32, 7:34, 16:9, 25:10, 33:11; Joel 2:16; John 3:29; Revelation 18:23, 21:2, 21:9, 22:17; as well as Song of Songs.
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RE: Women Priests as Viewed from Scripture 2007/06/28 04:56:07 (permalink)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Guest

The reason I emphasize this is I find it alarmingly wrong how the current church homosexualizes falsely the Eucharist using the """theology?????""""" of Van Balthasar that claims eucharist is a male orgasm self-giving fantasy instead of the body and blood of Jesus as host -bread- and wine--

Spiritual nourishment of Jesus's gift of self of body-bread and blood-wine- is NOT a sex act or homoerotic nuptial wedding sex activity as Balthasar claims in order to claim women can not be priests as he claims women are not male and lack this organ of " self-giving" activity--sounds like male masturbation is what this "theologian" now claims is the Eucharist.

No church as Bride images please! An abomination of an image now! Church as congregation of believers in Jesus and God, yes. Connie


Does one old theologian in brocade underwear wipe out the themes of the Hebrew Testament and the New Testament?

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RE: Women Priests as Viewed from Scripture 2007/06/28 11:21:17 (permalink)
  Jesus clearly states that he is Mother Hen gathering his chicks.
 
   Jesus clearly states that he is Bakerwoman making the Bread of Life with the yeast of eternal salvation-Bakerwoman!
 
    Jesus clearly emphasizes he is the Good Shepherd gathering ALL his lost sheep, naming and including each one, rejoicing over finding and saving the lost.
 
     Jesus clearly emphasizes he is the Vine and we are the Branches.
 
      The wrong obsession with Bridegroom is a fatal DISTORTION of Jesus NOT SANCTIONED by Jesus in the New Testament!
 
      John the Baptist does NOT obsess about it either- Baptist John emphasizes that he is UNWORTHY TO TIE JESUS'S SANDALS, that Jesus is the Son of God!  Do not foist unto him such an obsession and distortion.
 
      My husband and my sons and daughters and I are NOT brides of Christ but believers in Jesus and God.  Connie
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RE: Women Priests as Viewed from Scripture 2007/06/28 15:08:59 (permalink)
  Further Jesus and the writers of the Gospels continually ask us to believe in Jesus, to love our neighbour as ourself, to help and love each other.
 
   Jesus and the writers of the Gospels do NOT ask us to marry Jesus or be his bride, and to BELIEVE in Jesus and love one another, ask and you will be granted your plea, God will loose and bind in heaven and earth (Matthew). 
 
    There are very few references to bridegroom in New Testament
 
 and  MANY Good Shepherd, Lost Sheep.
 
 Prodigal Son,
 
Good Steward,
 
Vine and Branches,
 
Mother Hen, Bakerwoman,
 
Bubbling waters of faith of Kingdom within,
 
 Never Thirst again With Jesus's Living Waters of FAITH.  references           C
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RE: Women Priests as Viewed from Scripture 2007/06/28 17:44:58 (permalink)
Does one old theologian in brocade underwear wipe out the themes of the Hebrew Testament and the New Testament?


No, which is precisely the point.
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RE: Women Priests as Viewed from Scripture 2007/06/28 22:33:18 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: Guest

Does one old theologian in brocade underwear wipe out the themes of the Hebrew Testament and the New Testament?


No, which is precisely the point.

If you are the writer of the list of themes in the NT, I think there is perhaps a misunderstanding of at least one of them, and that is: 'Jesus and the writers of the Gospels do NOT ask us to marry Jesus or be his bride', and 'There are very few references to bridegroom in New Testament'.

The point I'm attempting to make is that there is a pre-disposition through the Hebrew Testament to understand that it is God that is the bridegroom. God 'espouses' the faithful. When it is mentioned, and this is is the 4th Gospel, Jesus is presented as God come to earth ann among his people. The 'wedding' is that event --- where heaven and earth are 'married' into a kingdom that is spread upon the earth. There is nothing "sexual" about this. It is really about the intimate relationship that makes the human "one" with its creator.

I really don't see a reason to get hung up in the metaphor since it is meant to represent the fulfillment of the longing of the heart.

The disconnect from the metaphorical here seems to be a place where pent-up anger to allowed to surface.

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RE: Women Priests as Viewed from Scripture 2007/06/28 23:46:31 (permalink)
  Could whoever said "old theologian wearing brocade underwear" identify him/herself  please. 
 
   This statement did not come from me.(C). 
 
 Please identify yourself.  I never said that statement.
 
  It has been tacked on to my post.    I do not accuse people of wearing any particular underwear.  Not from me.
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RE: Women Priests as Viewed from Scripture 2007/06/29 01:15:11 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: Guest

  Could whoever said "old theologian wearing brocade underwear" identify him/herself  please. 

  This statement did not come from me.(C). 

Please identify yourself.  I never said that statement.

 It has been tacked on to my post.    I do not accuse people of wearing any particular underwear.  Not from me.


Connie,

It was copied and pasted from the other thread and it came out that way. It doesn't look like you were writing it since it is asking you the question based on what you wrote.
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RE: Women Priests as Viewed from Scripture 2007/06/29 01:37:12 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: Guest

Does one old theologian in brocade underwear wipe out the themes of the Hebrew Testament and the New Testament?


No, which is precisely the point.


Hans Urs Von Balthasar died on June 26, 1988. I wonder why his opinion is so almighty important all these years later.
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RE: Women Priests as Viewed from Scripture 2007/06/29 02:04:03 (permalink)
  Because Rome uses his  thinking on eucharist as reason to exclude women from ordination. He is apparently Pope Ben's favourite theologian so this is vitally important.  The influence of this false idea of Eucharist by Van Balsthasar therefore takes on a dreadful importance.  The misogyny of some Vatican men feeds into it at the highest levels so yes it really matters.      Leonard
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RE: Women Priests as Viewed from Scripture 2007/06/29 03:46:31 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: Guest

  Because Rome uses his  thinking on eucharist as reason to exclude women from ordination. He is apparently Pope Ben's favourite theologian so this is vitally important.  The influence of this false idea of Eucharist by Van Balsthasar therefore takes on a dreadful importance.  The misogyny of some Vatican men feeds into it at the highest levels so yes it really matters.      Leonard


Evidently, not all of "Rome" thinks this way since that is not the description that is in the catechism. B16 is old. He may not be around very long. There's always a possibility that another J23 might be elected.
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RE: Women Priests as Viewed from Scripture 2007/06/29 05:25:14 (permalink)
The people here are a bit “gun-shy” regarding the use of the Bridegroom/Bride metaphor because the Catholic Hierarchy has been using it to try to prove that God is a masculine spirit. They then contend that because God is masculine, only men, who they say have masculine spirits, may represent this masculine God on earth.
 
Von Balthasar has perverted the metaphor with his sexual interpretation, where the Bridegroom (Christ) gives the Bride (us) his “gift” of sexual intercourse (the Eucharist). Furthermore the interpretation has demeaned the entire female sex by claiming that the spiritually masculine man is the better image of the masculine God and that is why Jesus was male and why only men may represent God.
 
The problem with this line of reasoning is that metaphors prove nothing. Metaphors take emotions and associations of subjects in one context and compare them with objects in different context. The Church conveniently disregards female metaphors of God or even animal or plant metaphors and focuses only on the male imagery to justify an all male priesthood.   
 
It is quite embarrassing that our Church Hierarchy has debased our religion with this perverted interpretation in a desperate attempt to justify their immoral practice of exclusion of women from the priesthood.
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RE: Women Priests as Viewed from Scripture 2007/06/29 05:30:43 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: Guest

The people here are a bit “gun-shy” regarding the use of the Bridegroom/Bride metaphor because the Catholic Hierarchy has been using it to try to prove that God is a masculine spirit. They then contend that because God is masculine, only men, who they say have masculine spirits, may represent this masculine God on earth.

Von Balthasar has perverted the metaphor with his sexual interpretation, where the Bridegroom (Christ) gives the Bride (us) his “gift” of sexual intercourse (the Eucharist). Furthermore the interpretation has demeaned the entire female sex by claiming that the spiritually masculine man is the better image of the masculine God and that is why Jesus was male and why only men may represent God.

The problem with this line of reasoning is that metaphors prove nothing. Metaphors take emotions and associations of subjects in one context and compare them with objects in different context. The Church conveniently disregards female metaphors of God or even animal or plant metaphors and focuses only on the male imagery to justify an all male priesthood.   

It is quite embarrassing that our Church Hierarchy has debased our religion with this perverted interpretation in a desperate attempt to justify their immoral practice of exclusion of women from the priesthood.


I guess I'm a bit surprised that people are so reactionary to something that they know is ridiculously distorted. Again, when people are so at odds with the leaders they choose to follow, I don't see how it can be a mentally healthy state.

What can be done to tune out the negative and to stop allowing it to steal energy?
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RE: Women Priests as Viewed from Scripture 2007/06/29 05:46:49 (permalink)
   The " negative that requires energy"  to change  is that  a "theology" designed to exclude women like this Eucharist is male sex act is exactly what is a huge stumbling block to ordination of women, real respect and dignity for women, and real health of our church.
 
   To ignore a "theology" like this I think is a huge mistake. 
 
 It is precisely what needs changing to a theology that is of Jesus and God:
 
  1. Jesus did not view eucharist as male sex act but body-bread   and  wine-blood:   no semen idea from Jesus at all.
 
   2. Jesus viewed women Not as evil worthless Eves but as Fellow Workers in Christ, fellow preachers, fellow anointers, fellow missionaries, fellow church leaders, fellow prophets, fellow teachers of the Gospel,  fellow theological students--women as fully capable and fully worthy to be "humble servants of God" just like the men.
 
    It is vital to work at removing Van Balthasar notions of Eucharist is male sex act from the Vatican's bag of tricks to try to block women as priests. It is a very unhealthy "theology" and not of Jesus or God and appears to encourage pedophile sexual abuse and encourages attracting many unstable and inappropriate male candidates for priesthood.   Maria
 
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RE: Women Priests as Viewed from Scripture 2007/06/29 05:58:52 (permalink)
  If you go to Resources section home page  (far right, top corner) , you can look up Theologians  and read Tina Beattie's article in this web site about Van Balthasar and Jean Bouyer (similar)  so you can see for yourself how wrong Balthasar notions are , which misogynist Curia has so shockingly ( and secretly ) embraced precisely because it leaves out women entirely.  Most people are unaware of what the Vatican quietly teaches in the seminaries, as I too did not know until this web site informed me.  This Van Balthasar eucharist male sex notion  is wrong and not of New Testament or Jesus or God and needs to be stopped.     Maria
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