Women Can Be Priests
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Mary, the first Christian

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RE: Mary, the first Christian 2006/11/27 03:00:11 (permalink)
well said!
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RE: Mary, the first Christian 2006/11/27 16:48:59 (permalink)
We don't bury our talents.  It is used in raising families, living in the consecrated life, and interacting with people every single day.  Why can't you just be content with your vocation as a woman?  I am!  Most women in the church are!  This website is heretical!  The Holy See shoudl see it!  At least your local Bishops.  I'm sure that you're all pro-gay "marriage" in the Church too?  Pro-Abortion?
 
If you are to call yourself a Catholic, you are to follow and stay true to what our Church teaches.  We do everything as Christ did it.  We hold true to a little thing called Sacred Tradition.  If you want some radical lies, go to a Protestant church.  Why do you think they call them Protestants?  The word protest is in it!  They protested against Christ's Church, thinking that they knew what was best!  HA!  THey are now all following human beings, not Christ.
 
My prayers for you that you might be able to learn to love and embrace the Holy Catholic CHurch which you claim to take part in and that you may learn to love and embrace your vocation and role as woman.  Perhaps read "The Theology of the Body" or any of the readings that go along with it.  It will help to re-assemble your distorted view of feminity and masculinity.  You are called to be female.  Not male.  Use your gifts as mother, wife, religious sister, layity, friend, volunteer.  Be at peace with the Truth that you (or any other woman) is called to be a priest.
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RE: Mary, the first Christian 2006/11/27 18:29:17 (permalink)
I am interested to know:
 
what would you have said to Jesus Christ when He commissioned Mary Magdalene to be the first witness to the resurrection?
 
During Jesus's time (as Pope John Paul II so insightfully pointed out in his Letter to Women), Jesus went against the norms of His time in terms of the way He related to women and what it was He acknowledged they could do.
 
During Jesus's time, women were not considered to be reliable witnesses.  It was against the tradition of the time -- in fact it was even against the law -- for a woman to act a witness in court.
 
Nonetheless, Jesus showed us there is greater depth to the human person that is shared by all of humanity.
He showed us that just because Mary was a woman, she should not be relegated to function in only the traditional roles for women of His time.
 
In his Letter to Women, Pope John Paul II joined in on what will be a continuing path for the full acceptance and inclusion of women's leadership within the Church.
 
There is absolutely nothing wrong with the traditional roles that women have fulfilled.  But if someone is gifted -- by God -- with other gifts -- it smacks as an insult to God to insist that those gifts be kept buried in a box ...never manifested for the benefit of community.  If you are not familiar with Jesus's parable of the talents, now might be a good time to check it out.
 
Whose side are we on?  The Lord's....serving the mission field of the Lord...
 
or serving blind, unquestioning obedience to conformity.
 
Look at what is happening in the Church -- paedophelia scandals running out of control, seminaries being shut down in Austria....
 
yet still we hear the condemnations against spiritual, intelligent loving women ....only because they are women...and only because like St. Teresa of Avila or St. Catherine of Siena (who also were shushed in their time) they are asking for reform that serves Wisdom, Truth, Justice, Love -- the Lord.
 
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RE: Mary, the first Christian 2006/11/27 18:32:58 (permalink)
I forgot to finish:
 
What would you have said to the Lord Jesus Christ when He commissioned Mary Magdalene?
 
Would you have followed the example of the apostles when they expressed their consternation to Him -- as they did -- for speaking with the woman at the well (see the Gospel of John for scriptural rendition.)
 
Or would you have said -- "A woman as a witness --- well it's never been done but Yes, Lord, I see and believe"..
 
I see and believe.
 
Wake up o sleeper, arise from the dead and Christ shall give you Light!
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RE: Mary, the first Christian 2006/11/27 21:57:02 (permalink)
woops, i meant to type is not called to be priest in my last post.
 
In regard to what you said, you said it right.  He appointed Mary of Magdala to be a witness...not a Priest.  There's a huuuuuge difference!  We are called to live as a witness to the Risen Christ every single day of our lives.  That has nothing to do with being a priest!
 
I'm going to try to calm down and tell you some things that I think and my friend think.  (I shared this website with her.)
It seems as though you have secularized the priesthood.  It seems as if you are taking the "equality" of men and women in the secular world and trying to make it work in the Church.  The Holy Catholic Church is of Heaven, not of the world.  Remember, we are called to live in the world but not be of it.  My friend pointed out that Jesus would  not have allowed the culture to dictate that women would be priests.  He would do His own thing.  She also pointed out that the Bible was written from Tradition, not directly from Jesus' lips.  It seems as though you are thinking that the Bible is more important than the Church's Sacred Traditions...which is a more protestant view, which would explain why you are thinking a bit off the beaten Catholic path. 
 
It also seems a bit selfish to want, want, want what you are not called to have or be.  It seems to be a bit of envy.  It also seems as though you are belittling men, suggesting that they are not good enough and that women would be better.  It seems as though you don't understand how beautiful it is to be a woman.  You are suggesting in the things that you say that you want to be both "as good as a man" and better than a man and that you want to beat men in what men do.
 
This is not a competition!  This is life!  We are called to be women and to live life gracefully as a witness to Christ.  Being a witness to Christ does not mean that you have to be a priest!
 
My prayers are very much with you.  I'm sorry for being so hot-headed in the beginning of this.  Please believe me that in the words that I am saying, I am trying to say it with love, that you may come to a deeper, more beautiful understanding of our awesome Faith.  Peace of Christ be with you.
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RE: Mary, the first Christian 2006/11/27 22:03:16 (permalink)
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We don't bury our talents.  It is used in raising families, living in the consecrated life, and interacting with people every single day.  Why can't you just be content with your vocation as a woman?  I am!  Most women in the church are!  This website is heretical!  The Holy See shoudl see it!  At least your local Bishops.  I'm sure that you're all pro-gay "marriage" in the Church too?  Pro-Abortion?

If you are to call yourself a Catholic, you are to follow and stay true to what our Church teaches.  We do everything as Christ did it.  We hold true to a little thing called Sacred Tradition.  If you want some radical lies, go to a Protestant church.  Why do you think they call them Protestants?  The word protest is in it!  They protested against Christ's Church, thinking that they knew what was best!  HA!  THey are now all following human beings, not Christ.

My prayers for you that you might be able to learn to love and embrace the Holy Catholic CHurch which you claim to take part in and that you may learn to love and embrace your vocation and role as woman.  Perhaps read "The Theology of the Body" or any of the readings that go along with it.  It will help to re-assemble your distorted view of feminity and masculinity.  You are called to be female.  Not male.  Use your gifts as mother, wife, religious sister, layity, friend, volunteer.  Be at peace with the Truth that you (or any other woman) is called to be a priest.

 
I truly resent your ridiculous assumption that all women who would honestly like to hear a woman's perspective of the gospel in Church on Sunday, watch a woman baptize a baby or comfort the dying with last rites, officiate at a funeral, or counsel her and hear her confession AREN'T already good mothers, wives, friends, and endless volunteers!  I truly resent these demeaning and ridiculous assumptions that you are making here!  How many children have YOU raised?  How many years have YOU been married?  How many babies being born and people dying have relied on YOU for help and comfort?  How many friends have YOU ministered to?  Have you ever ministered to anyone in jail?  How many years have YOU volunteered?
 
And the million dollar question: Just how do YOU counsel the countless young girls from CATHOLIC families whose lives are in RUINS because they were taught from day 1 BY THEIR DEVOUT CATHOLIC PARENTS AND CHURCH FAMILY that they were NEVER made in the image of GOD and their PRIMARY VOCATION was their SEXUALITY?!!!
 
 
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RE: Mary, the first Christian 2006/11/27 22:18:50 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: Guest
 
This website is heretical!  The Holy See shoudl see it!  At least your local Bishops. 


 
I am interested to hear why you think this website is heretical.
 
The Code of Canon Law guides our Church.
 
Canon 212.3 says:
 
According to the knowledge, competence, and prestige which they possess, they have the right and even at times the duty to manifest to the sacred pastors their opinion on matters which pertain to the good of the Church and to make their opinion known to the rest of the Christian faithful, without prejudice to the integrity of faith and morals, with reverence toward their pastors, and attentive to common advantage and the dignity of persons.
 
In other words, we have a positive duty to make our opinion known the pastors of the Church.
They in turn, have a duty to consider the sensus fidelium -- or in other words, the sense of the ordinary faithful -- the laity -- of the Church.  Canon Law recognises it should not just be a 'we-they' kind of thing but that the Holy Spirit works through both the pastors and the laity of the Church.
 
The Church has canonized people who in the past have spoken out -- despite what were some pretty massive obstacles put in the way by Church authorities. 
 
Gaudium et Spes, also known as  The Pastoral Constitution on the Church in the Modern World ,  is one of the results of the ecumenical council known as Vatican II.  Gaudium et Spes , was promulgated by Pope Paul VI in 1965.  At no. 62 , it says:
 
let it be recognized that all the faithful, whether clerics or laity, possess a lawful freedom of inquiry, freedom of thought and of expressing their mind with humility and fortitude in those matters on which they enjoy competence.
 
By virtue of Church law, then, we have a lawful freedom to enquire, express and explore.  Before asking the Church to consider changed, I feel it is my obligation to know and understand as well as possible the 'current'* Church teachings, so that when I speak,  I do so from a position of knowledge, respect, and loyalty to the Church I love so very dearly.
 
*I asterisked the word 'current.'  Many people do not seem to know that there are Church teachings which have changed over the centuries -- the Church teaching on slavery is one immediately that comes to mind.  If you are interested in learning more about this - and why it is so -- there is some excellent information in the academic section of this website.  There is some discussion about this, too, in the thread titled 'Beat This' in the Question and Answer section.  I have really struggled with coming to grips with my own personal realisation that the Church has not been quite as constant as I thought or wanted it to be.  But I have learned through this that Jesus invites me to deeper spirituality and a more profound awareness of what it means to be community.  I am also appreciating more just what it means to be human.
 
So yes, if you are interested in sharing 'why' you think this website is heretical...I am interested to know.  If you have the inclination to share, please do.
 
Oremus pro invicem.  Let us pray for one another. 
 
 
 
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RE: Mary, the first Christian 2006/11/27 22:28:29 (permalink)
i've raised no children, and am not yet married.  in fact, i am discerning a vocation to the religious life.  i have, however, volunteered well over 1000 hours of my time in the past year...much of it at a local soup kitchen.  so much time, in fact, that i recognize people on the streets and stop and talk with them.  i've volunteered for the past four or five years. as for parents, mine are on your guys' side.  they're very luke-warm Catholics.  I minister to friends all the time. it is only through the Grace of God and the intercessions of our Blessed Mother and Saint Therese de Lisieux and God sending some pretty phenomenal people into my life that I have come to see and know the Truth about our Church.
 
I will take into consideration Jesus' words "As I was hated, so too shall you be hated" in reading your post.  I will also take into consideration that you, as I was when I first began reading this website, were in a blind rage in typing what you have typed.  These women (I'm assuming that you are one of them from the passion behind your words) have an unfortunate past, I'm sure.  I'm not quite sure what you  mean by saying that their vocation is their sexuality?  But when you say that we are not made in the image of God, it is a flat out lie of Satan...one that corresponds with the distorted view of masculinity & feminity in our society today.  You see, God made Adam in His image.  Woman was made second.  And although this may seem demeaning in your mind (because you seem to share in the distorted image of the sexes like much of the rest of the world.  i'd highly recommend that you read The Theology of the Body -- it'll give you a more clear, holy, ordered view of the sexes!), it is realyl an affirmation.  we are almost like the perfection of the human being!  it's beautiful to be a woman!  You see the Church as degrading women, but they're HELPING us!  They're bringing feminity back, BABY!!
 
What I meant by "just be content with your vocation of woman" was not to just pop out babies, etc.  (though being a mother -- whether physical or spiritual -- IS the call of every single woman)  Look at Mary!  She was the very first living Tabernacle!  She raised our Lord!  Is this not to be taken to us as an example!?  As women, we are just simply not called to be priests!  We can do so much more!  Someone once said, "It is the saints, not the ministers, who make the biggest differences."  So go live out your faith and try to become a saint!  Make a difference that way!!
 
Also, another quote which a priest once said to a group of us during a faith Q&A session is "Learn your faith or you are going to lose it."  I would highly suggest that you learn the Faith...because from the sounds of the words i am reading, you are dangerously close to losing it.  And it's too beautiful of a Gift -- our Holy Catholic Faith -- to lose.
 
God's peace be with you.
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RE: Mary, the first Christian 2006/11/27 23:11:20 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: Guest

ORIGINAL: Guest

We don't bury our talents.  It is used in raising families, living in the consecrated life, and interacting with people every single day.  Why can't you just be content with your vocation as a woman?  I am!  Most women in the church are!  This website is heretical!  The Holy See shoudl see it!  At least your local Bishops.  I'm sure that you're all pro-gay "marriage" in the Church too?  Pro-Abortion?

If you are to call yourself a Catholic, you are to follow and stay true to what our Church teaches.  We do everything as Christ did it.  We hold true to a little thing called Sacred Tradition.  If you want some radical lies, go to a Protestant church.  Why do you think they call them Protestants?  The word protest is in it!  They protested against Christ's Church, thinking that they knew what was best!  HA!  THey are now all following human beings, not Christ.

My prayers for you that you might be able to learn to love and embrace the Holy Catholic CHurch which you claim to take part in and that you may learn to love and embrace your vocation and role as woman.  Perhaps read "The Theology of the Body" or any of the readings that go along with it.  It will help to re-assemble your distorted view of feminity and masculinity.  You are called to be female.  Not male.  Use your gifts as mother, wife, religious sister, layity, friend, volunteer.  Be at peace with the Truth that you (or any other woman) is called to be a priest.


I truly resent your ridiculous assumption that all women who would honestly like to hear a woman's perspective of the gospel in Church on Sunday, watch a woman baptize a baby or comfort the dying with last rites, officiate at a funeral, or counsel her and hear her confession AREN'T already good mothers, wives, friends, and endless volunteers!  I truly resent these demeaning and ridiculous assumptions that you are making here!  How many children have YOU raised?  How many years have YOU been married?  How many babies being born and people dying have relied on YOU for help and comfort?  How many friends have YOU ministered to?  Have you ever ministered to anyone in jail?  How many years have YOU volunteered?

And the million dollar question: Just how do YOU counsel the countless young girls from CATHOLIC families whose lives are in RUINS because they were taught from day 1 BY THEIR DEVOUT CATHOLIC PARENTS AND CHURCH FAMILY that they were NEVER made in the image of GOD and their PRIMARY VOCATION was their SEXUALITY?!!!



Pardon me for inturrupting your debate with my friend here but I read this post I had to say something. I am not a mother nor am I a wife, for I am the same age and at the same turning point in my life as my friend. She feels called to the religious life and God is calling her to himself to be his bride. While I am feeling a strong call to the life of a wife and mother. I am one of six children. My mother is a stay at home mom, while my dad works. She has given everything up for us. She has a degree in voice from the Boston Conservatory, and could very well have become a great proficient. But she was called to be a self-sacrificing mother, putting aside her wants and needs for her children. Which is what Christ has done for us. He gave his body to be sacrificed for us. My mother gave her body to bring my brothers and sisters and I into the world. I was born and raised Catholic and I do not resent my parents for doing so. I am incandescently happy with my life right now and  it gets better everyday! I thank my parents everytime I get the chance for being such wonderful, sacrificial people for being such great teachers of the faith in my life. I also should add that my mother has lost her first child, he was a stillborn. She could have easily turned her back on God and hated him for the rest of her life, but it only brought her closer to him. Mothers go through just as much as any person if not more. 
Women are especially called to do many things that men cannot. Every woman is special. Christ calls ever woman to him in some respect. For my friend, to be His wife and give everything to Him. This could very well be my vocation for I have some discerning ahead of me. But I can say right now that Christ is the number one man in my life, I choke back tears thinking about how much He loves me and how much He wants me to love Him.
Im sorry if Im not clear but I just want you to know that there is something God is calling you to but there is something blocking your view. I pray that you find it and can see how far Christ's arms are outstretched to you.
 
God Bless and Mary Protect.
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RE: Mary, the first Christian 2006/11/27 23:24:37 (permalink)
To the orthodox Catholics on this site,
I feel the need to tell you that the people on this site could care less about the teachings of the Church. If there is a teaching that they dislike, they will simply dismiss it and usurp the infallibility of the Church by claiming that what is official binding teaching really is not, regardless what the Magisterium of the Church teaches. These groups are similar to the sedevecantists, who arbitrarily decide if the pope is valid or not. These people have become a magisterium unto themselves. They pick and choose quotes from official documents that they want to abide by while discounting the rest because of thier lack of fitting the agenda. Canon 212 is great! However, the canon that regulates a male priesthood is worthless. These people embark on their historical revisionism, forcing modern conceptions into remote practices...like women deaconesses (never a part of holy orders). Just the mere fact that the ancient councils never addressed the idea of women deaconesses and priests should cause these people to realize that this was not a common practice.
 
Bottom line, these people simply don't care! The Catholic Church is the last bastion of orthodoxy left in the Christian world, and they will fight tooth and bra to turn it into one of their radical feminist social agenda projects. They even believe that young women such as you and my wife cant possibly hold to an orthodox viewpoint.
 
Take a survey of the other content on this site, particularly the stuff regarding sexuality...you will be amazed at the perverse ideas that these people adhere to.
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RE: Mary, the first Christian 2006/11/27 23:29:55 (permalink)
Hey,
 
I'd gladly tell you why I believe it to be heretical!!  :-)   According to the ever-so-convenient dictionary.com, the definition of a heretic is





"a professed believer who maintains religious opinions contrary to those accepted by his or her church or rejects doctrines prescribed by that church."
 
Why I say that this website is heretical is because it goes against our Church's teachings!  I'll remind you of  the crux of somethingI posted earlier: "I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful" (Ordinatio Sacerdotalis 4).  The Church has a definite "doctrine prescribed" on this issue and many people on this website is rejecting it.  In fact, this whole website seems as if it is an attempt to reject the Church's very firm teaching on this. 
 
I recognize, however, that you have used the phrases "positive duty," and "a lawful freedom to enquire, express and explore," which suggest to me that you feel that it is your job to try to change the Church because you feel that you know what is best.  Perhaps I have misinterperted this a little bit, however, it is what I picked up...that you feel that it is your duty to challenge the Church.  However, when you think about this, it is almost as if you are telling God, "Excuse me, I know what is best!"  And when we think about this, what is it that this tells Him?  Do you think that it perhaps hurts Him?  it reminds me greatly, again, of the Protestant movement...rejecting the Sacred Traditions which Jesus and the original Catholics have left and deciding that we, the human race, know what is best instead of God.  You see, Christ tells us to deny ourselves, take up our crosses, and run with Him.  Perhaps your Cross is struggling with the Truth that women cannot be priests.  It's something different for everyone.  But, Christ tells us to follow Him.  One of the ways in which we can follow Him is by following the Traditions of the Holy Catholic Church which He has created through His life, death, and resurrection.
 
Anytime we speak against the Church's beautiful teachings, we are heretics.  Most people have been guilty of it before...and that's okay as long as you repent, learn your faith, and don't do it again!!  So....I've given my reasons as to why I believe this site to be heretical.
 
God's blessings.

 
 





 
 
 
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RE: Mary, the first Christian 2006/11/28 01:03:37 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: Guest

These people embark on their historical revisionism, forcing modern conceptions into remote practices...like women deaconesses (never a part of holy orders). Just the mere fact that the ancient councils never addressed the idea of women deaconesses and priests should cause these people to realize that this was not a common practice.


 
In terms of women deaconesses never having been part of Holy Orders, I urge you to take a look at the thread entitled 'The View from the Greek Orthodox Church' in the Question and Answer section.
 
I am sure you know that in the early church...in fact until 1054, the Catholic and the Orthodox Churches were one.  Today, both our Catholic and Orthodox leaders are working very hard to bring re-unification between the two churches.
 
In fact, I think it is within the next day or two that our Holy Father, Pope Benedict XVI, will be visiting Turkey.  The primary purpose of his visit is to spend time with Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholemew, the Istanbul based spiritual head of the world's Orthodox Christians.
 
The planned meeting is the latest attempt at rapprochement between Christianity's two great branches after the schism of 1054, which followed a long feud over papal authority and liturgical differences.
 
The Greek Orthodox Church has recently re-established the ancient order of women Deaconesses... very much a part of sacramental Holy Orders.
 
In our own Catholic Church, Deacons -- as part of Holy Orders -- fell out of use until recently....it has been restored to more prominent use once again for men.  Prior to this, it existed only in the form of the transitional deaconate -- in other words, only for men who would go on to furthe ordination as priests.
 
The diaconate dates from the time of the apostles.  Paul did not exclude women from serving as deacons (1 Tim. 3:11), but in time, the Council of Chalcedon (451 AD) declared:  "No woman under 40 years of age is to be ordained a deacon, and then only after close scrutiny."
 
Canon 18 of the Second Council of Orleans in 533 AD decreed: "henceforth no woman may any longer receive diaconal benediction due to the frailty of their sex."  Repeated complaints from clergy that women had no place in the developing heirarchy put an end to the tradition....until of course it witnesses 'resurrection' in the body of our sister in faith, the Greek Orthodox Church.
 
So to that women deaconesses were never part of Holy Orders is factually absolutely incorrect.
 
In Christ's peace and friendship may we remain!




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RE: Mary, the first Christian 2006/11/28 01:17:17 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: Guest

woops, i meant to type is not called to be priest in my last post.

In regard to what you said, you said it right.  He appointed Mary of Magdala to be a witness...not a Priest.  There's a huuuuuge difference!  We are called to live as a witness to the Risen Christ every single day of our lives.  That has nothing to do with being a priest!


 
Just as an aside, Christ did not appoint anyone at all to be a priest.
 
'Priest' is applied in only three ways in the New Testament.
 
  • to Jewish temple priests (Matthew 26: 3, 57)
  • to Jesus as High priest (Heb. 4:14)
  • to and the community of the faithful -- men and women -- as part of God's royal priesthood (1 Pet. 2: 5, 9)

Mary Magdalene, who was the first witness to the Resurrection, is known as the Apostle to the Apostles in the Eastern Catholic Church and this is how Pope John Paul II referred to her, too.  She was an eyewitness to the resurrection and she was commissioned by the resurrected Lord to do missionary work -- to men, the eleven remaining of the twelve no less!
 
There is no scriptural basis for the priesthood.  It is something that has been developing and changing along the way...just like other teachings of the Church have changed.  There was a discussion going on that reviewed changes to the Church's teaching on slavery.  If you are interested in it, it is found part way through the "Beat this" thread in the Question and Answer section.
 
 
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RE: Mary, the first Christian 2006/11/28 01:21:03 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: Guest

Why I say that this website is heretical is because it goes against our Church's teachings!  I'll remind you of  the crux of somethingI posted earlier: "I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful" (Ordinatio Sacerdotalis 4).  The Church has a definite "doctrine prescribed" on this issue and many people on this website is rejecting it.  In fact, this whole website seems as if it is an attempt to reject the Church's very firm teaching on this. 


 
There is an engaging discussion going on about this in the "Beat this" thread in the Question and Answer section.  Why don't you come join us there!
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RE: Mary, the first Christian 2006/11/28 01:28:21 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: Guest 

I recognize, however, that you have used the phrases "positive duty," and "a lawful freedom to enquire, express and explore," which suggest to me that you feel that it is your job to try to change the Church because you feel that you know what is best.  Perhaps I have misinterperted this a little bit, however, it is what I picked up...that you feel that it is your duty to challenge the Church. 


 
I don't think it is my duty to "challenge" the Church...but I think it is my duty to speak up when I am inspired through prayer and strong feelings to do so.
 
How else does the Holy Spirit inspire any one of us to act?
 
I am interested to know what your perspective is on St. Catherine of Siena.  She is now a canonized saint and recognised as a Doctor of the Church.  She challenged the Church to reform.  If you were living at the same time she was, would you have urged her to be quiet?....since what she was saying was contrary to what was coming out of Rome. 
 
Would you have thought "Rome has spoken.  It is all resolved."  (which it wasn't since eventually, the Church followed along with some of what Catherine was saying.  She in fact is said to have died in a state of despair over circumstances in the Church....her great love for the Church, her great compelling need to speak out, completely shushed by her contemporaries...yet today recognised not just as a saint but a Doctor ...highest order of reverence...of the Church.)
 
Would you have screamed that Catherine was a heretic since she was in fact speaking against the Church?
 
Or would you have listened, prayed, and carefully tried to discern...where the Holy Spirit was moving?
 
Would you have wondered what Jesus would say?
 
Would you have prayed?
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RE: Mary, the first Christian 2006/11/28 01:33:42 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: Guest

Anytime we speak against the Church's beautiful teachings, we are heretics.  Most people have been guilty of it before...and that's okay as long as you repent, learn your faith, and don't do it again!!  So....I've given my reasons as to why I believe this site to be heretical.

God's blessings.

 
In what you say here, if you were living at the same time of St. Catherine of Siena, you would have been on the side that said she should just shut up because she was a troublemaker in the Church.
 
Is that where you would like to be counted in?
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RE: Mary, the first Christian 2006/11/28 02:02:19 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: Guest

.... because you feel that you know what is best.  Perhaps I have misinterperted this a little bit, however, it is what I picked up...that you feel that it is your duty to challenge the Church.  However, when you think about this, it is almost as if you are telling God, "Excuse me, I know what is best!"  And when we think about this, what is it that this tells Him?  Do you think that it perhaps hurts Him?  it reminds me greatly, again, of the Protestant movement...rejecting the Sacred Traditions which Jesus and the original Catholics have left and deciding that we, the human race, know what is best instead of God.  You see, Christ tells us to deny ourselves, take up our crosses, and run with Him.  Perhaps your Cross is struggling with the Truth that women cannot be priests.  It's something different for everyone.  But, Christ tells us to follow Him.  One of the ways in which we can follow Him is by following the Traditions of the Holy Catholic Church which He has created through His life, death, and resurrection.

Anytime we speak against the Church's beautiful teachings, we are heretics.  Most people have been guilty of it before...and that's okay as long as you repent, learn your faith, and don't do it again!!  So....I've given my reasons as to why I believe this site to be heretical.

God's blessings.


Thank you so much for sharing.  It helps me to understand where you are coming from.  I think, although I cannot say that I do, I understand what you are saying.  From my own personal experience, I am a devout Catholic (not perfect that is for sure!)
And it has been a struggle for me to come to terms with what I now feel so strongly inside of me...and yes...contrary to what I once believed, the suggestions that my new beliefs have put me into a heretical state with the Church.

A long dark night of the soul and then through God's grace, I came to peace.  It was when John Paul II commissioned the Jubilee mass asking for forgiveness of the sins of the Church that I heard in what he (JPII) was saying, that my --our-- Church is not perfect.  It is human.  I was part of a discussion in another thread  where we were discussing how the Church's teachings on slavery have changed -- quite dramatically -- over the ages.  Our discussion included this:



I have been wondering whether it is troubling or 'cage rattling' for some when they reflect on the documented history of change in the Church teachings about slavery.

I am drawn to consider that we might find some comfort in the leadership shown by Pope John Paul II when he spoke about sins of the Church. He was not known to 'shy away' from admitting the commission of wrongs by members of the Church heirarchy. This was much to the dismay many of his Vatican colleagues who felt it was public relations 'suicide' to even broach the possibility of a need for forgiveness 'within the Church heirarchy.' (I have read that Vatican bureaucrats were often frustrated with how difficult JPII was to 'manage" -- from their point of view.)

Despite internal opposition from Vatican 'apparachiks' (sp?), a papal mass during the Jubilee Year was celebrated where the theme was a request for 'forgiveness' for sins of the Church, Christians, Christianity.

People in the heirarchy who resisted the idea did so because they believed it would be an institutional public relations disaster for the Church to admit there had been less than perfection in its history. "People have been cultured into believing the perfection of the Church" they would say and destroying that belief -- they felt -- would destroy loyalty to the Church.

I did not know John Paul personally (just you know I am being clearly up front, I do not agree that his Ordinatio Sacerdotalis is binding for all time).

My impression of him was that at times, he had a deeper understanding than most as to the very real need for the Church to show leadership in humility, admission of sin, and in asking forgiveness. This theme shows up in his 1995 Letter To Women (see paragraph 3 in the following link:
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_let_29061995_women_en.html)

It also showed at the mass seeking forgiveness. If you are interested in a short news story about it, a CNN link is here. I refer you to the entire article but specifically the heading "Women and Minorities":
http://archives.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/europe/03/12/pope.apology.02/index.html

I wonder if through John Paul II, the Holy Spirit is inspiring/encouraging us to reflect on the fact that we all...including members of the heirarchy...are in need of the mercy of God.

I wonder, too, if through some of what we heard during the Jubilee Year to remind us of our need for forgiveness might be in some way the Holy Spirit leading us to ponder what it means to be 'alert'...to be 'prayerful'....to be community....to be responsible....to not be threatened or fearful of the continuing quest for Truth.

At World Youth Days in Toronto several years ago, over and over again, we heard the Pope say: Be not afraid.

We must not be afraid of questions and challenges in the quest for the Truth.

"Truth" can stand up to challenge. It can stand up to questions. It is not fearful nor does it turn questions and truth seekers away.

Ok...maybe i'm rambling...I just remember my point of 'conversion'....realising things were not as I thought they were. It was somehow shattering yet I see now it was necessary. Change -- maybe growth is a better word -- isn't easy.

If we are talking about the 'perfection of the Church", I wonder if we also ought to be reflecting on what is the Church?

- is it just the Magisterium in Rome?
- is it the priests, the Bishops, and the Pope?
- does it include nuns?
- does it include us?
- does it include the people who ask questions? the people we disagree with?
- is it something more vast and mysterious than any of this? Is the Church 'the Body of Christ' in ways that we have yet to understand?


The following, from his 1995 Letter to Women is quite eloquent in its expression of the John Paul II's admiration for the positive work and achievments of the feminist movement.

He said:

the journey has been a difficult and complicated one and, at times, not without its share of mistakes. But it has been substantially a positive one, even if it is still unfinished...

It crosses my mind that this might be a very nice way to sum up some of what I believe is the work of the Church.  Our journey together has been a substantially postive one..sometimes complicated...and sometimes hard to understand.  But God calls each and every one of us in very individual ways. 

Change is never easy.  Yet reflecting on the history of our Church, one can see that in many ways there have been many, many changes.

I do not see it is my place to judge any other person in what they do believing it to be the will of God.  It is between God and that person.  For my part, I try to listen and discern.  From what I have come to see and know about our Church, I know that not all of it is stellar performance.  For some of those parts it is very difficult for me to imagine  what Christ would say were He to show up 'in person'...."Gee guys, great job...sure like the way you handled...." 

On some things, I do believe Jesus would say "Fantastic job."  On other things, just as surely I do believe He would not.

I am called to be part of this mighty, beautiful, wonderful Church.  It is my home. It is my love.  But in my Church I must primarily be true to God...

It is God who strengthens me....
It is God who sustains me....
It is God who is my rock...
And when I am asked to be God's voice...
I know I have little in the way of choice....misery is mine either way considering the struggle I have endured when trying to keep silent, and considering the struggle I have endured when trying to speak up... through the words of condemnation that are...sometimes... hurled my way for saying what I do.

I pray and pray about this.

If you truly believe that the words I speak are 'heretical,' then all I can ask is that you pray for me, too.

I hope that you will continue to be part of our conversation.

We are all called to be peacemakers in the world.  It is not easy to have conversations when there is disagreement.  But if this discussion can be nothing more than you and me learning how to engage and learn from one another, then I do believe we are doing the Lord's work...contributing to peace in the world by contributing to peace in our own little square.

May the peace of our risen Lord Jesus Christ be with you!

Oremus pro invicem!  Let us pray for one another.





post edited by Therese - 2006/11/28 21:12:30
Therese
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RE: Mary, the first Christian 2006/11/28 02:12:38 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: Guest  it reminds me greatly, again, of the Protestant movement...rejecting the Sacred Traditions which Jesus and the original Catholics have left and deciding that we, the human race, know what is best instead of God.  You see, Christ tells us to deny ourselves, take up our crosses, and run with Him.  Perhaps your Cross is struggling with the Truth that women cannot be priests.  It's something different for everyone.  But, Christ tells us to follow Him.  One of the ways in which we can follow Him is by following the Traditions of the Holy Catholic Church which He has created through His life, death, and resurrection.

Anytime we speak against the Church's beautiful teachings, we are heretics.  Most people have been guilty of it before...and that's okay as long as you repent, learn your faith, and don't do it again!!  So....I've given my reasons as to why I believe this site to be heretical.



I have a couple of questions:
  • do you think that "everything" about the Protestant movement was wrong...and against God's will?  I wonder about this.  For example, it was because of the Protestant movement that we, as Catholics, are now encouraged to engage in personal private Bible study.  Prior to this, we were not encouraged to read the Bible on our own but instead to rely only on hearing the readings at mass.  (As an aside, if you ask me, I do have great fondness for the oral tradition of our faith.  Nothing like hearing a great proclaimer of the word!)
  • or do you think there were perhaps some positive things for our Church that came about as a result of the Protestant movement .  If so, what do you think they were/are?
  • what is your view on the ecumenical movement....the effort to bring greater unity  -- or at least friendship --among the varying Christian denominations?

I look forward to hearing from you!

May God's peace be with you.
post edited by Therese - 2006/11/28 21:17:22
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RE: Mary, the first Christian 2006/11/28 02:15:55 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: Guest

If you are to call yourself a Catholic, you are to follow and stay true to what our Church teaches.  We do everything as Christ did it.  We hold true to a little thing called Sacred Tradition.  If you want some radical lies, go to a Protestant church.  Why do you think they call them Protestants?  The word protest is in it!  They protested against Christ's Church, thinking that they knew what was best!  HA!  THey are now all following human beings, not Christ.


 
Ditto to the post one earlier in time!
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RE: Mary, the first Christian 2006/11/28 02:20:13 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: Guest

  they're very luke-warm Catholics. 
 

 
How can you be so sure about this?  and how is that you can feel so confident in making this assessment?
Has God asked that you be judge and jury?
Is it possible that God sees more clearly into hearts than you might be able to do?
 
Just curious.
 
 
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