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Sophie
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RE: The Women Apostles, the Women Disciples 2008/08/03 23:26:26 (permalink)
Today, August 3 in the eastern Church is the feast day of Saint Salome

Salome (Hebrew, "shalom", "peace"), the younger sister of  Mary (mother of Jesus), was a follower of Jesus.  She appears briefly in the canonical gospels, and who appears in more detail in apocryphal writings. She was the wife of Zebedee and the mother of James and John, two of the Twelve Apostles.



Eastern Orthodox icon of the two Marys and Salome at the Tomb of Jesus (Kizhi, 18th century).
 
Salome in the canonical gospels
 
In the gospel of Mark, Salome is named as one of the women present at the crucifixion.  Mark 15:40 reads:

And there were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the Mother of James the Less and of Joseph, and Salome.

The parallel passage of Matthew reads:



Among whom was Mary Magdalen, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee" (Matthew 27:56).


Comparison of the two gives a well-grounded probability that the Salome of the former is identical with the mother of the sons of Zebedee in the latter, who is mentioned also in Matthew 20:20 sq., in connection with the petition in favour of her sons.

In John, three or perhaps four women are mentioned at the crucifixion; this time they are named as "Jesus' mother, and the sister of his mother, Mary of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalen". A common interpretation is to identify Salome as the sister of Jesus' mother, thus making her Jesus' aunt. "Mary the mother of James and Joses" mentioned in Matthew may be identified with Mary, the mother of Jesus, backed up by an earlier passage in Mark which names a James and a Joses (or Joseph) as being among Jesus' brothers. In some places Salome is identified with Mary of Cleophas and venerated as Saint Mary Salome. However, other traditional Catholic interpretations associate Mary of Cleophas with Mary the mother of James and Joses.

In Mark, Salome is among the women who went to Jesus' tomb to anoint his body with spices. They discovered that the stone had been rolled away, and a figure in white then told them that Jesus had risen, and asked them to tell Jesus' disciples that he would meet them in Galilee. In Matthew, just two women are mentioned in the same story; Mary Magdalene and the somewhat ambiguous "other Mary".

The canonical gospels never go so far as to label Salome a 'disciple', and so mainstream Christian writers usually describe her as a 'follower' of Jesus.

Salome in the Apocrypha
 
The early Christian Gospel of Thomas found at Nag Hammadi mentions among the "disciples" of Jesus (the Greek expression "apostles" does not appear) two women, Salome and Mary Magdalene (referred to simply as "Mary").

The controversial Secret Gospel of Mark, that was referred to and quoted in the Mar Saba letter ascribed by some to Clement of Alexandria, contains a further mention of Salome which is not present in the canonical Mark at 10.46. Clement quotes the passage in his letter:
"Then he came into Jericho. And the sister of the young man whom Jesus loved was there with his mother and Salome, but Jesus would not receive them." The lines complete a well-known lacuna in Mark as the text currently stands.

In the early but non-canonic Greek Gospel of the Egyptians (early 2nd century), Salome appears again as a disciple of Jesus. She asks him how long death would hold sway, and he says to her, "So long as women bring forth, for I come to end the works of the female." To this Salome replies, "Then I have done well in not bringing forth." It would appear from this text that there was an early tradition that Salome the disciple was childless, and apparently unmarried.

In the Gospel of Thomas there is a reference to Jesus sharing Salome's couch at the meal, and of Salome's esoteric questioning. 'Who are you sir,' she asks him, 'that you have taken your place on my couch and eaten from my table?' And Jesus says, "I am he who is from the One, and the things that belong to the Father have been given to me." Salome replies, "But I am your disciple", and Jesus answers, "When the disciple is united he will be filled with light, but if he is divided he will be filled with darkness."

Even non-Christian writers in the 2nd century were aware that some tradition existed of secret teachings passed down from "Salome the disciple", to sects such as the Carpocratians, the followers of the Carpocrates who got hold of an unauthorized copy of the Secret Gospel of Mark in Alexandria mentioned in Clement's private letter and who claimed to derive some of their gnostic tenets from Salome, it would appear. A 2nd-century Greek, Celsus, wrote a True Discourse attacking the Christian sects as a threat to the Roman state. At the time he was writing, c. AD 178, the variety of Christian sects was still extremely broad. His treatise is lost, but quotes survive in the attack written somewhat later by Origen, Contra Celsum ("Against Celsus"): "While some of the Christians proclaim [that] they have the same god as do the Jews, others insist that there is another god higher than the creator-god and opposed to him. And some Christians teach that the Son came from this higher god.

Still others admit of a third god - those, that is to say, who call themselves gnostics - and still others, though calling themselves Christians, want to live according to the laws of the Jews. I could also mention those who call themselves Simonians after Simon, and those naming themselves Helenians after Helen, his consort. There are Christian sects named after Marcellina, Harpocratian Christians who trace themselves to Salome, and some who follow Mariamne and others who follow Martha, and still others who call themselves Marcionites after their leader, Marcion."


Salome (right) as midwife, bathing the infant Jesus, is a common figure in Orthodox icons of the Nativity (fresco, XII c., "Dark Church", Open Air Museum, Goreme, Cappadocia.

In the early Christian texts there are several other references to "Salome". A Salome appears in the infancy gospel attached to the name of James the Just, the Protevangelion of James, ch. XIV:

"14 And the midwife went out from the cave, and Salome met her. 15 And the midwife said to her, "Salome, Salome, I will tell you a most surprising thing, which I saw. 16 A virgin has brought forth, which is a thing contrary to nature." 17 To which Salome replied, "As the Lord my God lives, unless I receive particular proof of this matter, I will not believe that a virgin has brought forth."

18 Then Salome went in, and the midwife said, "Mary, show yourself, for a great controversy has arisen about you." 19 And Salome tested her with her finger. 20 But her hand was withered, and she groaned bitterly, 21 and said, "Woe to me, because of my iniquity! For I have tempted the living God, and my hand is ready to drop off."

That Salome is the first, after the midwife, to bear witness to the Miraculous Birth and to recognize Jesus as the Christ, are circumstances that tend to connect her with Salome the disciple. By the High Middle Ages this Salome was often identified with Mary Salome in the West, and therefore regarded as the believing midwife.
 
An apocryphal Coptic Book of the Resurrection of Christ, attributed to the apostle Bartholomew, names the women who went to the tomb. Among them were: Mary Magdalene; Mary the mother of James, whom Jesus delivered out of the hand of Satan; Mary who ministered to him; Martha her sister; Joanna (perhaps also Susanna) who renounced the marriage bed; and "Salome who tempted him".

Salome's Name
 
"Salome" may be the Hellenized form of a Hebrew name, such as Shulamit, Shulamith, Shlomtsion or Shlomzion. (A Queen called Salome in Josephus is known as Shlomzion in Hebrew sources.)

Sainthood
 
She is commemorated in the Eastern Orthodox Church on the Sunday of the Myrrhbearers, i.e., the third Sunday of Pascha (Easter). She is remembered with Mary of Clopas on April 24 in the Roman Martyrology, and in the Calendar of Saints of the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod on August 3 with Joanna and Mary.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salome_%28disciple%29
post edited by Sophie - 2008/08/03 23:32:06
Sophie
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RE: The Women Apostles, the Women Disciples 2008/08/03 23:34:43 (permalink)


The Myrrhbearers, the two Marys and Salome
post edited by Sophie - 2008/08/03 23:35:55
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RE: The Women Apostles, the Women Disciples 2008/08/03 23:42:38 (permalink)
 
 
 
The Myrrhbearing women: Apostles to the Apostles

The Myrrhbearing Women followed Jesus during his earthly ministry in Galilee, providing for him and his followers out of their own means (Mark 15, 41). They remained faithful to him even during the most dangerous time of his arrest and execution, and not only stood by the cross, but accompanied him to his burial, noticing where the tomb was located.

Because of the impending Sabbath, it was necessary for the burial preparations to be brief. Jewish custom at the time dictated that mourners return to the tomb every day for three days, and once the Sabbath had passed the women returned at the earliest possible moment, bringing myrrh to anoint the body. It is at this point that the Resurrection was revealed to them, and they were commissioned to go and tell the Apostles.

They were, in effect, the Apostles to the Apostles. For this reason, the Myrrhbearing women, especially Mary Magdalene, are referred to as Apostles to the Apostles or Equal to the Apostles.
Sophie
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RE: The Women Apostles, the Women Disciples 2008/08/03 23:54:18 (permalink)
As for proclaiming the Good News, the Twelve are not the only followers who are commissioned by Jesus to do so. ... In the closing scene of Mark's Gospel, the heavenly messenger clothed in white commissions Mary Magdalene, Mary, the mother of James, and Salome to "go and tell [Jesus'] disciples and Peter, 'He is going before you to Galilee; there you will see him, as he told you'" (16:7). This Gospel ends, however, with the women saying nothing to anyone because of fear. In this way Mark leaves the story open-ended, inviting his readers to take up the commission to go forth and proclaim. In the Gospel of Matthew the women are commissioned both by the angel at the tomb (28:7) and directly by the risen Christ (28:10) to tell the other disciples. That they do fulfill this directive is implied by 28:8, where they run to tell the disciples, and 28:16, where the eleven go to Galilee as they were directed. Luke relates that the women 'told all this to the eleven and to the rest' (24:9-10) but they were not believed (24:11).

...

Fluid Roles  What is clear from the New Testament evidence and the ongoing Christian tradition is that the definition of 'apostle' was not uniform in the first communities of believers.  While the Gospels narrate the call and sending of Twelve, the picture from Paul's letters is of a whole contingent of apostles sent out to preach and evangelize. There are not yet fixed 'job descriptions' for ministers in the early Church. Some, like apostles, are sent away from home to proclaim to others. Others, like the healed man in Mark 5:20, and hosts of house churches, such as Mary (Acts 12:12), Nympha (Col 4:14), and Lydia (Acts 16:40), are to remain at home and announce God's goodness there. When we try to name the apostles, it is a much bigger challenge than trying to memorize the list of the Twelve. There were also Andronicus, Junia, Barnabas, Apollos, Epaphroditus, Paul, James the brother of the Lord, Silvanus, Timothy, Mary Magdalene, the Samaritan woman, Thecla, Nino and countless others whose names are now lost to us.

- from The Other Apostles
by Barbara Reid, OP

Read the complete article, click here: http://www.womenpriests.org/circles/postnumber.asp?id=7588
Sophie
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RE: The Women Apostles, the Women Disciples 2008/08/04 00:07:34 (permalink)
Dear friends,

One of the arguments Rome makes in defence of its prohibition against women's ordination is to say that only men were apostles. Rome argues that Jesus didn't choose any women as apostles. But is this true?

Because of historical neglect of the stories of women, many Catholics accept Rome's argument at face value: there were only 12 apostles and they were only male. It was therefore Jesus's intention that we have only male priests.

Academic research now shows this is not true. Other articles that discuss the matter of apostleship are found here:

If you have any questions, please let me know.
 
with love and blessings,

~Sophie~
maz
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RE: The Women Apostles, the Women Disciples 2008/08/08 21:12:19 (permalink)
regarding why only male [foundation] apostles were chosen I find this explanation logical and spiritual
for whole article and prior reasons http://www.godswordtowomen.org/Apostles.htm
....Finally, Jesus chose the way of provisional accommodation for the sake of future implantation.  He went along with undesirable situations in the sure knowledge that things would change after his resurrection.  This strategy counted on the effect of delayed action--not to rock the boat for the present but prepare for the big change at the right time (Matt. 10:27; 12:14-16, 38-40; 13:24-30; 16:4; Mark 9:9-10; John 2:20-22; 4:21-23; etc.).

It is evident that the appointment of twelve male Jews as Jesus' first disciples falls into this third category.  Since the first wave of the disciples' ministry was exclusively directed at Jews, it was inconceivable that anyone else but Jewish men could have been appointed to this task.  Gentiles were generally held apart if not in contempt, and women were not deemed worthy of being instructed or of participating in Jewish public life, much less of being delegated as instructors to the people (Luke 7:6-7; John 4:9, 27; Acts 10:28).  Therefore, under those conditions, it was inevitable that the first missionaries of the Christian movement should be Jewish males.  Had Jesus included Gentiles and women among the Twelve, he would have forfeited the future of the movement at its inception.


my view is that close female disciples/apostles would have been taken even less seriously than the twelve male ones were [in Jesus' Incarnation]. They would possibly be in more physical danger from the Pharisees and Saducees too, [because of laws].
Women could not even enter the Temple [only the Temple Courts...which is why the early Church gathered there at first, as they were breaking away from the old order].
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RE: The Women Apostles, the Women Disciples 2008/08/08 22:10:21 (permalink)
The interpretation  no women apostles does not hold up.
 
Jesus forced the male apostles to listen to women apostles.  Mary Magdalene is Key Resurrection Witness  Samaritan Woman Teaches, Preaches to Samaria
 
John 4  Jesus highly praises the Samaritan woman for reaping the harvest, for doing what the men should do.  She preaches his Gospel and theology while they do  nothing.
 
Read all of John 4.  Amazing text.  Jesus teaches her complex theology  God is Spirit  God is not limited to a mountain or Jerusalem  Jesus is the MESSIAH  She is told he is the Messiah  One of the first people he directly informs.  He gives her living waters of faith.
 
He is delighted with her honesty and humility and curiosity and intelligence.  Not once does he tell her to repent her lifestyle or abandon her boyfriend or go look after her children or husband, whether married or common law.  Very interesting.  He unconditionally accepts her, encourages her and praises her.
 
Jesus taught women theology directly. He was not hindered by the times. 
 
 Jesus defended Mary Bethany to Martha, that learning theology is exactly what a woman too should do., not just houseclean and care for the household. 
 
Jesus  taught Samaritan woman theology  directly too. 
 
 Jesus  broke down gender barriers and made Mary Magdalene the key witness and proclaimer of the Crucifixion and Resurrection.  He forced the men to listen to her and no woman in the Roman or Jewish culture was to be witness, he knew that but he overturned such limitations and restrictions on women.
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RE: The Women Apostles, the Women Disciples 2008/08/08 22:12:25 (permalink)
The Women Apostles are Very Significant to Christianity.  Without them we would not have Christianity.
 
See Bart Erhman's books too.  There are not just twelve male apostles.  See thread Women Apostles   Look at this thread please and the New Testament too.
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RE: The Women Apostles, the Women Disciples 2008/08/08 22:30:55 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: Guest

The Women Apostles are Very Significant to Christianity.  Without them we would not have Christianity.

See Bart Erhman's books too.  There are not just twelve male apostles.  See thread Women Apostles   Look at this thread please and the New Testament too.
is this to me?

I know there were more than 12...I did say the twelve 'foundation' apostles.
This is something that is thrown against us [that they were male] and needs studying. I think you have misunderstood my post and what it means, sorry.

Are you the same person who disagreed with me on the other thread? [I understand some Catholics may want anonymity, but I wish people would sign their posts with a nickname or something...as there are too many 'Guests' and we need to know which 'Guest' we are replying to].

If you are the same person, please don't jump too quickly to assume what I believe...
thanks.
post edited by maz - 2008/08/08 22:34:56
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RE: The Women Apostles, the Women Disciples 2008/08/09 02:04:16 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: Guest


I know there were more than 12...I did say the twelve 'foundation' apostles.
This is something that is thrown against us [that they were male] and needs studying.

 
So what? They were also all Jews. If we are to be restricted by gender, then what about nationality? Perhaps we should only have Jews ordained. Or perhaps there should only be 12 priests in the whole world.
 
Why just pick on gender, unless of course you want to follow a tradition of oppression and discrimination against women.
 
 
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RE: The Women Apostles, the Women Disciples 2008/08/09 02:43:44 (permalink)
Yes.  Besides being men and Jewish, the Twelve Apostles were all Palestinian, lived by the sea, spoke Aramaic, were married, had children, possessed no university education, were circumsized, had dark skin and wore beards, tunics and sandals.  They didn't eat pork or shellfish.  They attended synagogue, celebrated Jewish holidays, and if they could read, read the Torah.  Collectively, they had no concept of Christianity.
 
If the human features they had in common are what guides who can be a priest, then there are no priests, bishops, cardinals or Catholic popes who qualify for priesthood in our Church.
 
Limiting the considerations to gender makes no sense.
 
If it does, then why aren't all common features taken into account?
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RE: The Women Apostles, the Women Disciples 2008/08/09 02:44:24 (permalink)
Why not exclude everyone who fails to meet these qualifications?
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RE: The Women Apostles, the Women Disciples 2008/08/09 04:19:17 (permalink)
Hello Maz  What is your opinion about women ordination please?  Yes tbe 12 male apostles do reflect the need to appease the Jewish concept of 12 Isrealite tribes.  To give early validity to the new Jesus movement.  That is true and we know also Jesus  soon extended his ministry to beyond Israel, to Gentiles, to Samaria, to Syria and Greece and beyond.  We know also there are far more than 12 male apostles, there are also other male apostles and many female apostles .  If we call Paul an apostle we also call the others apostles.  Paul proclaims that tne wonderful Junia is a woman apostle who is outstanding among, foremost among the apostles and that is his words about her. 
I look foward to your ideas.  All is new with Jesus, and that is why he is so memorable, so remarkable, even 2000 years later.   Connie
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RE: The Women Apostles, the Women Disciples 2008/08/09 04:20:31 (permalink)
I meant to say  "hello Maz"  (not Mac).  My kids want to use the computer too, so it gets busy here!  Connie
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RE: The Women Apostles, the Women Disciples 2008/08/09 04:27:29 (permalink)
  H Dear Maz:  Virgin Mary was allowed into the Holy of Holies of the temple.  She is  the first priest.  Jesus also is priest. (1st peter). Remember, Jesus does not ordain anyone in his church and never uses the term priest in the bible,  We are to be humble servants of God, rule over noone, serve each other in humiilty and love. (Please see 1st Peter and other texts  of NT re this).  You could see the View from Orthodox Church thread of this website.  It is very interesting.
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RE: The Women Apostles, the Women Disciples 2008/08/09 04:34:26 (permalink)
  Dear Maz  Did you know that the list of 12 changes from one Synoptic Gospel to another and is not constant?   Please let me know your thoughts re this.
 
This is further acclamation that the names and number are an early  validating device to give Jewish credibility to the fledgling movement.
 
  Look at the texts, the list of 12 keeps changing. 
 
 Interesting when we really look at the bible , very interesting.  Quickly the apostles and ministry moves beyond Israel only and past the  number 12.  This overemphasize of 12, of 12 males does Christianity a great disservice and ignores the truth, beyond Israel and more than 12 apostles, women too.    Connie
maz
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RE: The Women Apostles, the Women Disciples 2008/08/09 11:19:12 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: Guest


ORIGINAL: Guest


I know there were more than 12...I did say the twelve 'foundation' apostles.
This is something that is thrown against us [that they were male] and needs studying.


So what? They were also all Jews. If we are to be restricted by gender, ..
sorry [not sure if you are Connie]
where are you getting the idea that I am saying they are restricted by gender?
You are badly misunderstanding my points and reason for posting - sorry - I appreciate you might be busy, but if you will read the articles I am quoting from you will see we are on the same 'side.'

I know there were more apostles later [including women like Junia and Priscilla] but after Jesus' death and Resurrection [when the Holy Spirit was poured out on all believers male and female]...please read the article I quoted from http://www.godswordtowomen.org/Apostles.htm
it answers the question that traditional Catholics always throw at us when they say why were the Twelve male?

God bless you
maz
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RE: The Women Apostles, the Women Disciples 2008/08/09 11:21:40 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: Guest


ORIGINAL: Guest


I know there were more than 12...I did say the twelve 'foundation' apostles.
This is something that is thrown against us [that they were male] and needs studying.


So what? They were also all Jews. If we are to be restricted by gender, then what about nationality? Perhaps we should only have Jews ordained. Or perhaps there should only be 12 priests in the whole world.

Why just pick on gender, unless of course you want to follow a tradition of oppression and discrimination against women.


you know...there is just no need for this aggression against me.
Sorry, but you are not reading properly and assuming badly.
I am very disappointed as we are on the same 'side' - you have no need to be angry with me.
please could you sign your posts with a nickname so I know which 'Guest' I am responding to?
Thanks.
post edited by maz - 2008/08/09 11:22:27
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RE: The Women Apostles, the Women Disciples 2008/08/09 11:55:59 (permalink)
I read some of the sites you named.  Will keep on looking at more. Thanks, Maz, for sharing.
 
I must point out that the Women Apostles are FOUNDATIONAL Apostles too.  This is what is unique and revolutionary, NEW about Jesus.
 
Women Apostles travelled and ministered with Jesus from the BEGINNING in Galilee to the Pentacost. Beloved disciple (see Mark too) is a child.
 
Women are the ONLY Apostles to Anoint Jesus's Holy Body, to Witness the Crucifixion, The Resurection, To Teach the News Messiah to Gentiles,
 
Another has posted a list of what Women FOUNDATIONAL apostles do for Jesus and us that only women do. Men are great apostles too and so are women.
 
Clearly Jesus is making a DIFFERENCE here in choosing women DURING his Life on Earth.  Women are NOT a Later 'afterthought".
 
Jesus CHOOSES Women Apostles during his ministry, chosen by him. Women too are FOUNDATIONAL APOSTLES. Gender does not stop Jesus from making women apostles during his time with us on earth.
 
This is extremely important to acknowledge that Jesus breaks down these barriers and is inclusive.  This too is a powerful teaching of Jesus to include women.
 
The culture of Roman authority and Jewish tradition does not hamper Jesus, he extends his apostleship to WOMEN from the Beginning to the end, and beyond.
 
Mary Magdalene, Salome, Joanna/Junia (like Saul is renamed the Roman word, Paul, Joanna is renamed the Roman word, Junia), Martha, Mary Bethany etc, are with him and being apostles from the beginning.  Women too are Foundational Apostles.   Thanks for bringing this up, Maz.  It is super important to get a handle on this. from Tony
 
maz
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RE: The Women Apostles, the Women Disciples 2008/08/09 12:05:45 (permalink)


I read some of the sites you named.  Will keep on looking at more. Thanks, Maz, for sharing.
thank you Tony :) [so nice to see a man involved in this - as is my husband...he is the one who has 'pushed me forward' through our married life, recognising God's teaching call on me].

I must point out that the Women Apostles are FOUNDATIONAL Apostles too.
if it helps I will call the 12 'the first and original ones who were called in the gospels' :-)
the reason I call them foundation[al] is that is what they are known as in Christian circles...for the sake of communication...

it is important to distinguish between the ending of the old order [covenant] and the inauguration of the new covenant - which came when the Holy Spirit was poured out upon the 'sons and daughters' at Pentecost and God the Spirit came to indwell male AND female...
because Jesus' redemptive work on the Cross, and His Resurrection needed to be first accomplished before the 'curse' [although not from God] because of disobedience in the Garden, was reversed....and the Holy Spirit poured out.

So many actually underestimate the Change that the Cross [and Resurrection] brought in - even whilst purporting to hold it in high estimation, sadly.












post edited by maz - 2008/08/09 12:06:22
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