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Hot!The Women Apostles, The Women Disciples

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RE: The Women Apostles, the Women Disciples 2008/08/09 12:13:42 (permalink)
P.S. There is no valid reason to exclude women from priesthood and deacon office.  Women were ordained in the Early Church. Women ARE Foundational Apostles during the lifetime of Jesus and just as fully have Apostolic Succession like the men apostles too.
 
So women today should still be priests and deacons.  Remember also how Jesus wholeheartedly chooses and praises and endorses the great Apostleship of the Samaritan woman, she is as much a Foundational Apostle as any of the males and he tells them she is doing a better job than them.
 
 He is totally pleased with her ministry.  Do you want to see Catholic women as priests or do you oppose it?  What denomination are you and do you agree/disagree with women being ordained in your own denomination? 
 
Good to discuss this as there is plenty of misunderstanding about this 12 concept. I think the passages are somewhat suspect.  See Rex Weyler's 2008 book the Jesus Sayings. Amazing book. See  Bishop John Shelby Spong's books, and Kenneth Davis's books ( and others) because women too are equal apostles and not after the death of Jesus, yep during the earthly life of Jesus too. 
 
  What do you think?  Hey, also take a look at W. Barnstone and Marvin Meyer's Gnostic Gospel book because it includes great Early Christian writing ( some of it so ancient it is before the time of Christ)  including this amazing woman prophet and the writings of her sound exactly like  what ended up in the New Testament as words of Jesus.  Just great and mind blowing  good stuff!  I find this really interesting and worth looking at.  My opinion and research says: Women too are Foundational Apostles. Ordain them too. Tony
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RE: The Women Apostles, the Women Disciples 2008/08/09 12:29:25 (permalink)
Hi Maz  The' first and original ones' are Also the WOMEN Apostles.   The Women are there from the beginning to the end.  I really think this is super important to get clear.
 
This is also part of what is so amazing and different about Jesus.  Women are totally worthy to Jesus and to God.  The Old Testament got it wrong in excluding women so much.
 
The New Testament is to correct the error of excluding women.  Jesus is  making a big good change here.  The Women are also "first and original apostles/disciples.
 
Jesus is not culture bound or gender restrictive.  He resists the prohibitions of the Pharisees and Sadduces too.  He heals women, hemorraging women, yound girls like Jarius's daughter matter to him. he heals on the Sabbath, he heals lepers, the blind, the paralyzed, the adultress is restored to community, he raises the dead , he says mercy, love, inclusiveness , justice, compassion trump over the letter of the law prohibiitions and restrictions.
 
I suppose we can agree to disagree about this one.  My take on this is I am convinced Jesus is making a great difference here in holy love and justice and communion and women apostles too are first and original and foundational just as much as the male apostles.   Tony
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RE: The Women Apostles, the Women Disciples 2008/08/09 14:36:10 (permalink)
Dialogue With The Savior,  Gospel of Mary (suppressed books).   Bible, John 4.
 
 Samaritan Woman = Mary Magdalene?  
 
 Is the chapter John 4 really a record of the great Mary Magdalene being made a great Apostle by Jesus?  Educated in theology by Jesus and commissioned as apostle?
 
Is that why in 590 the Pope Gregory defamed and maligned Mary Magdala unjustly to deny women and women apostles their place in the church?
 
 This error was not admitted to or apologized for untill 1969, is that why the male Curia falsely called this destructive to women and community, destructive to children Pope Gregory """great""" because he robbed women and the world of the true service to the church of women and made men entitled and exclusive clergy?
 
 
 
 
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RE: The Women Apostles, the Women Disciples 2008/08/09 14:52:18 (permalink)
Elements of the Samaritan woman are not part of Mary Magdalene. 
 
 It is the teaching of theology of a woman and the admiration of her good qualities and commissioning her as apostle that is important here. 
 
Changing this dialogue to a much married, living common law woman of Samaria, instead of Mary of Magdala , has removed from Mary of Magdala much of her apostolic role.
 
It has removed from her the reverance and significance she formerly had as evidenced by the fact that previously in the Early Church centuries hundreds of churches and monasteries had been named after Mary Magdalene, the Tower of the Flock, the great Mary.
 
Pope Gregory took away her role that Jesus gave her and the Great Mary, Mary Magdalene, The Tower of the Flock, became replaced by the non threatening to males, supposedly meek, silent one of a kind, Virgin Mother of Jesus, alone of her sex.
 
 The male Curia  made Virgin Mary the new Great Mary as no woman could truly be really like her and she is no threat to ordination according to the thinking of the male Curia of those days (and now I suppose too, in regards to their strange wrong  reading of scripture that denies women any real role in the church of Jesus.)
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RE: The Women Apostles, the Women Disciples 2008/08/09 21:48:47 (permalink)


The New Testament is to correct the error of excluding women.

I agree, and it is also about so much more.
Jesus is  making a big good change here.  The Women are also "first and original apostles/disciples
please would you comment on my previous post about His death and resurrection and the changing of the old order.
thanks.

Jesus is not culture bound or gender restrictive.
I know...have I said He is?

He resists the prohibitions of the Pharisees and Sadduces too.  He heals women, hemorraging women, yound girls like Jarius's daughter matter to him. he heals on the Sabbath, he heals lepers, the blind, the paralyzed, the adultress is restored to community, he raises the dead , he says mercy, love, inclusiveness , justice, compassion trump over the letter of the law prohibiitions and restrictions.
I know...forgive me for being crude...but this is like trying to teach your granny to suck eggs.



I suppose we can agree to disagree about this one.
no, not at all.
All that worries me is WHy you are so badly misunderstanding what I write.
Is is good to have zeal, but not without knowledge...please slow down brother and read my words carefully.

post edited by maz - 2008/08/09 21:49:12
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RE: The Women Apostles, the Women Disciples 2008/08/09 23:20:38 (permalink)

The male Curia  made Virgin Mary the new Great Mary as no woman could truly be really like her and she is no threat to ordination according to the thinking of the male Curia of those days (and now I suppose too, in regards to their strange wrong  reading of scripture that denies women any real role in the church of Jesus.)

If they deny women any real role in the church of Jesus, what is it that causes you to believe that they are truly the church of Jesus?
 
woman who votes with feet
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RE: The Women Apostles, the Women Disciples 2008/08/10 01:55:37 (permalink)
Great point, woman who votes with her feet.  Okay the church is Roman and has far to go to be like the one that Christ founded, you are spot on again. Lord, you have a quick mind!  The hierarchy have highjacked it and transformed it , keeping those  pesky women out, now and in the past.  What do you think about the largely "disappeared" from scripture Mary Magdalene?  Do you think the scribes did some hanky panky stuff with the text, to make her less important?  Seems to me like that is a real possibility.  Connie
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RE: The Women Apostles, the Women Disciples 2008/08/10 02:13:19 (permalink)
To Maz  I would like to clarify I am a woman, a wife and a mom.  Tony in my case  is short for Antoinette.  I too thought the name Maz was masculine.  Names can be confusing!
 
To get to your post,  I still really must clarify. Here is why that post is interesting to me.
 
First of all Jesus does teach women theology.  Mary Bethany     Samaritan Woman   Jesus does not wait for the "second wave" all the time.  All is new with Jesus.
 
Second, Jesus commissions women to preach to Gentiles, to Samaritans, in public.  Samaritan Woman.  He does not wait till after his death to commission women apostles.
 
I say yes there are real women apostles in the time of Jesus, chosen directly and taught theology directly by Jesus.  Not just 12 men even at this beginning stage.
 
Yes, I agree the 12 males represent the 12 Jewish tribes, yes, however Jesus is really proactive and getting women involved as women apostles too even at this stage.
 
Mary Magdalene is also a real woman apostle commissioned to speak the Gospel, good news to the public, witness of Resuurection , by Jesus. Not "second wave" either.
 
So, the post you made about this is partially accurate, but not entirely.  Hope this makes sense to you, Antoinette.
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RE: The Women Apostles, the Women Disciples 2008/08/10 02:23:48 (permalink)
Maz from Connie.  I did not make the posts you consider aggressive that are unsigned.  Those are not made by me. You are right it is so helpful to sign a name to avoid confusion and misunderstandings.  I found your contributions very insightful and read the links.  They are great and give much food for thought. Thanks so much.
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RE: The Women Apostles, the Women Disciples 2008/08/10 02:49:41 (permalink)
     The quote that says the twelve  Jewish males as apostles was needed at the beginning stage for the new group to survive does make sense.  It is odd though that the twelve names keep changing from gospel to gospel.  The lists name different men, so it certainly is a device to give Jewish credibility yet not accuracy.  Maybe there were lots more or really lot less apostles at this early stage. Maybe the number twelve for twelve tribes is what they want to emphasize above all else to ensure Jewish credibility.
     The women  apostles are there however, from the beginning to the end.  They too are named.  Jesus gets them learning theology from himself, and gets the women to be witnesses and preachers despite the cultural and legal prohibitions of his time.  Even in this early stage of the group. 
     It does shake things up.  Jesus and his band of "brothers and sisters".,  his apostles , appear to be driven into Samaria, a place he initially said they would  not enter or preach in.  Now Jesus goes there and there he commissions the Samaritan woman as his preacher , tells her he is the Messiah and teaches her the faith.
     The women apostles get commissioned quite early on in the time of Jesus and his time on earth.  So we can see that yes women too do have apostolic succession from Jesus.
     That is how I see the situation of the apostles and Jesus, women and men. What do you think?  Makes sense to me to ordain women too,   Connie
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RE: The Women Apostles, the Women Disciples 2008/08/10 03:46:02 (permalink)
Dear Maz
         It is great to hear from you.  I like what you shared.  It certainly makes a person think a lot about these issues.  What you presented and wrote  and the links you put here  are great.  I hope your health improves. This is a great web here.  It seems some are quick to get defensive when there sometimes is no need to do that.  Mostly those who add to the discussion are very sincere and helpful.  They mostly mean very well and really want to help the church.  My best wishes for your health.    Beverly
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RE: The Women Apostles, the Women Disciples 2008/08/10 05:40:54 (permalink)
maz,
from me, too!
m.
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RE: The Women Apostles, the Women Disciples 2008/08/10 10:49:04 (permalink)
Thanks Connie, Beverly and M. for your welcome and encouragement...

to the poster who said the names of the original 12 keep changing...really? How?
I know sometimes the Greek name is written and sometimes the Aramaic/Hebrew
I know that Matthias was chosen as a replacement for Judas
I know that Simon's name was changed to Peter and is sometimes written as Cephas...

is that what you are thinking of?

The women  apostles are there however, from the beginning to the end
even the men are not known as apostles until later... [being referred to as simply 'disciples' until then]
the mystery of the full message had not been revealed UNTIL Jesus' death and resurrection and the coming of the Holy Spirit.
post edited by maz - 2008/08/10 10:51:31
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RE: The Women Apostles, the Women Disciples 2008/08/10 18:57:15 (permalink)
Dear Maz  
 
 The disciples are also Apostles.  The women  too are also both disciples and apostles.  Look at the meaning of the word apostle.
 
The men are also both disciples and apostles, as are the women.  Now Mary Magdalene I hope you can see this, is not only a disciple too of Jesus, she is also an apostle who proclaims the Good News, the extremely important Good News, the Gospel, that Jesus is Resurrected!  She is Apostle to the Apostles, a reak Apostle of major Good News!
 
Yes there is no doubt the women are indeed disciples and apostles.  The men also go on to teach, preach and apostalize too the teachings, the Gospel  of Jesus.
 
Do you really think that none of them are apostles?  Please also look at the meaning of the word apostle.  Sophie made a great post about it and it is also discussed in Resources section, this web, main page access tp it.
 
I will show you next how the list of apostles, disciples names of the men vary from Synoptic text to text, so it does seem indeed it is a Jewish validation device of 12 for 12 Isrealite tribes.
 
I appreciate your questions and interest.  It is a joy to help.  God bless you,           I love what you discuss as it is so important!            from Antoinette.
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RE: The Women Apostles, the Women Disciples 2008/08/10 19:04:29 (permalink)
Here is further to what you discuss, Maz and this too is super important and I love that you bring it up!
 
The meaning of the full message of Jesus was revealed even before his death and resurrection.  If one eyes to see and ears to hear, as Jesus says to us!  Wow!
 
  Jesus is Messiah, and this great news and Jesus's transfoirming Redemption and Healing of so many prior to his death and Resurrection is also the Great meaning of Jesus.    
 
God bless from Tony
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RE: The Women Apostles, the Women Disciples 2008/08/10 19:10:51 (permalink)
A really great reality is that Mary Magdalene understood Jesus even better than Peter. 
 
 The humility of the Samaritan Woman and her courage and desire to be humble servant of God, to proclaim, to Apostalize the Gospel of Jesus , the Messiah, to Samaria absolutely delights Jesus. 
 
Jesus  praises her so highly and is so thrilled he does not even want the food the male disciples bring back with them. 
 
 Her spiritual service and good works, her apostleship for Jesus and God, is nourishment enough for Jesus!     from Tony
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RE: The Women Apostles, the Women Disciples 2008/08/10 19:21:53 (permalink)
Just one quick example of the transforming redemption and healing of Jesus, even before his death and resurrection: 
 
 Jesus is able to redeem and change the cheating tax collector, Zaccheus, who climbed the tree to see Jesus when Jesus came to his town. 
 
 Jesus went to the house of this previously shameful man, and ate with Zaccheus  --- like the Eucharist of Redemption, you see -------and transformed , healed and redeemed him so that he repaid the people many times over and became a new man, a new mind, a new heart , a new soul  in Christ.   Just one example., there are many more.
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RE: The Women Apostles, the Women Disciples 2008/08/10 20:46:49 (permalink)
The 12?  The Names Change! The  lists are not the same! ,  Luke, John, Mark, Matthew ( Source:  Holy Bible, 2000 edition, American, British  Bible Society, Good News Edition, )
 
12 for  12 Israel Tribes  ?              Referred to As Apostles and as Disciples Too, Both Terms Used  In the Bible, before Crucifixion and Resurrection Passages in Bible.. 
 
Mark 3:13-19    "Jesus calls his apostles to send them out to preach and drive out demons" :
 
Simon (Peter), James, John ,Andrew, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James, Thaddeus ,Simon Patriot, Judas
 
John 1: 35- 41, and John 13, and John 14, John 21
 
Simon  (Peter) , Andrew,  Philip, Nathanael ,  Judas ,  Thomas, Beloved Disciple (unnamed)     Nathanael  Not Named in Other Texts or lists of synoptic gospel texts
 
Matthew 10: 1-4
 
These are the "names of the apostles"      Simon (Peter), Andrew, James ,John, Philip, Bartholomew, Thomas, Matthew, James ,Thaddeus, Simon Patriot, Judas
 
Luke 5: 12-16  Simon (Peter),  Andrew, James, John, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, Simon, Judas, Judas Iscariot, Mark    Mark is not named in other lists.
 
As you can see, the list of male apostles, disciples varies from synoptic gospel to gospel.  12 seems a Jewish credibility number for 12 Israel tribes.  Which is fine because in the beginning they were in Israel and all were Jewsish in the group.  The women are named too and these lists vary too, gospel text to text. 
 
Maz, does this help you?  God bless.
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RE: The Women Apostles, the Women Disciples 2008/08/10 20:58:57 (permalink)
Before I forget, women are as much disciples and early apostles for Jesus as the men are. 
 
 The women are named too and travel with Jesus from the beginning too. 
 
 John 4 also shows us that a woman is a great apostle too, the Samaritan woman is apostle for Jesus to Samaria, with the great approval of Jesus during his life on earth.  Not restricting his apostleship to men or to Jewish men or women, Jesus makes an apostle of this Samaritan woman. He extends his apostleship to Gentiles like her.   She fufuils the role and meaning of apostle very ably as Jesus happily lets us know.      Antoinette
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RE: The Women Apostles, the Women Disciples 2008/08/10 21:13:00 (permalink)
Maz, Thinking about this some more, do you mean that the  male apostles do not drive out "demons" and preach till after Jesus dies?  Is that what you mean? 
 
 On the other hand, Jesus has all ready commissioned a WOMAN  Apostle to Preach his Gospel,. his Good News, to Samaria.
 
That is very significant that  a woman is validated to preach and be apostle during the life of Jesus so thoroughly and completely by Jesus.
 
Then a woman apostle, Mary Magdalene is chosen by Jesus to witness and proclaim, apostaliize his Resurrection.  Jesus could have only appeared to men instead yet Jesus delibertely appears to a woman apostle and has her announce, apostalize his Good News to them.
 
Sure sends a message that women are true workers in the church, no restrictions or limits on women come from Jesus.  We should ordain women in Catholic church.  T.
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