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Hot!The Women Apostles, The Women Disciples

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RE: The Women Apostles, the Women Disciples 2008/08/10 21:32:56 (permalink)
 Dear Maz,
 
 I love your links you provide and your points you make.  You are a real blessing and helping us so much.  Thank you and hope your health improves.    from Antoinette.
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RE: The Women Apostles, the Women Disciples 2008/08/11 00:10:14 (permalink)

The hierarchy have highjacked it and transformed it , keeping those  pesky women out, now and in the past.  What do you think about the largely "disappeared" from scripture Mary Magdalene?  Do you think the scribes did some hanky panky stuff with the text, to make her less important?  Seems to me like that is a real possibility.  Connie

It is very well documented that Constantinian edited the official Christian scriptures held and brought to him by the Christians at the very beginning when he founded the Roman Universal Church.  It is also well documented that the new Roman version of Christianity didn't get on well with its neighboring Christians and insisted from the very beginning that it was entitled to hegemony in the name of God and Rome ... or was that Rome first, and then God(?)....or was it that God is Rome after all(?)!  (All roads don't lead to God, after all, all roads lead to Rome!) 
 
I think far more interesting than the frolicking toga-clad Roman editors (who were most interested in bedding young women and disempowering their outraged mothers and grandmothers in society) is the fact that when the Catholic missionaries first approached the Native Americans of the Great Plains and presented the concept of Our Lady, why yes, of course, they said that they already knew her well, they recognized her, she was of course the White Buffalo Calf Woman, the female emmisary and manifestation of the Great Spirit, the Creator of All.  They said that she most often appears near springs of fresh healing water, or springs of fresh healing water appear in her wake, her blessing upon the earth.
(springs of fresh water?)
Of course.  Like Lourdes.
 
Ah, but I think you're really on to something with the church question.  In Christ's day everybody knew what the Temple was.... you got your walls, your priests, your arch priests, your authority figures who supposedly speak directly to God and mediate God to the people, and who write and enforce laws in society (determining who is one of us, who is not, who is our enemy, and who among us we can legitimately stone to death this week) and do a bit of social service work on the side.  In Christ's day everybody knew what the Temple was and what the word "temple" meant....
But Christ apparently never said that He came by to straighten out the Temple that then existed and put it on a more Godly path, nor did he apparently say that He came by to create a new Temple for people which would reflect a more a Godly path, but He apparently used some word that we translate as "church" which apparently was some kind of a different word altogether from "temple." 
The million dollar question then becomes what word did Christ actually use and why, and what exactly does the word "church" represent that is somehow different from the concept of a "temple"?
When Constantinian built the Roman Universal Church, he just knocked the old artwork and the old books out of the old temples and set up a hierarchy of single men organized along the lines of the Roman army to run the place.  So... did he build a "church" or a "temple"?.... and what's the difference between them?
 
woman who votes with feet
 
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RE: The Women Apostles, the Women Disciples 2008/08/11 00:49:39 (permalink)
Dear Woman Who Says She Votes With Her Feet But THen Hangs Around As A Self Appointed Judge and Jury of those Who Still Love Their Church Despite It's Challenges,
 
Yur theology  aint' makin much sense. In the wwf catechism, why did Christ came to earth in teh first place.  By my read of what you say, must be that he saw it as a functional place and he came to enjoy cake and ice cream out on the patio?  Otherwise, can't figure out why he'd humble himself to come be in our muck and problems, including Roman toga parties (funny he came right to the Romans) to help all people  learn how to love one another and be co-redeemers.
 
He didn't reject people who failed.  no. he sure got frustrated with them. yet he was always willing to help them stand up again.
 
I never heard the pharisees sing but lots of times when i read your writin, i wonder if therer tunes with thier toxins and poison criticizingd Christ and pointing fingers at him for hanging out with sinners played to any different tune than the one yur singin criticizing all the icons of Christ who with courage follow Him into places that need healing?
 
Sad thing for those youngsters at your church.  Bad lesson #1 was the moronic priest who refused baptism.  Bad lesson #2 was the catechism teacher who refused an apology.  Neither really appear to me to be modelling christian virtue. #1 focused on show. #2 focused on personal pride.
 
if you don't see that yur called to here or part of the solution, does your theology support any belief in redemption? 
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RE: The Women Apostles, the Women Disciples 2008/08/11 01:46:27 (permalink)
Whoah I do not understand the recent post above .  I have to reread it and try to understand it better.  
 
Dear Woman Who Votes With Her Feet.  Thanks for your response. 
I like your experience, your wisdom and I definately do not see you as a voice of condemnation or against Catholicism or Christianity.  I think you have a real handle on what Christ and religion/faith is really about, all the faiths really. I agree the single men we ended up with  were clerics in the Roman style, a political hierarchy of bishops just like in the Roman civil service of Constantine and so have remained in the Roman church.
 
I had not considered (I am slow at times for sure!) that Constantine went about with his clerics eliminating the competing Christian groups.  You are right. That is just what they did.  I read a really brilliant compilation of these early Christian writings, (and it includes ancient Buddhist, ancient Chinese and Egyptian sacred texts too,) with prechapter presacred text great commentaries by Willis Barnstone and Marvin Meyer.  These were the eliminated sacred groups and religious writings suppressed  long ago by Rome.  Ah, what could have been.  I am glad the New Testament did not get entirely mangled.  One thing in their book that really amazed me is the sacred text of a female prophet which predates New Testament by several centuries.  Her words have ended up, phrase by phrase, word by word, as words of Jesus in the New Testament.  Ancient plagarism! Good stuff is good stuff! I posted the title of this book in Book Suggestions a while back.  Really a wonderful read of ancient, beautiful sacred writings, some more than six thousand years old.
 
To me you are part of the solution and you offer hope to the church in regards to courage of integrity, courage to ask for change, to no longer acquese to bad theology, abuse of children and women and others by the church.  Your insights and wisdom are appreciated by many.  Maybe, not some. but that is all part of life.  We are not all the same.
Thank you again, and I see you as a very positive force for the church.  St. Francis of Assissi before he died, left the church and left his order, he voted with his feet too.  That is I suppose not well known about him, yet it is the story of many people of faith, including some saints who also voted with their feet at some point in their lives.
             God bless.  from Connie.
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RE: The Women Apostles, the Women Disciples 2008/08/11 01:54:55 (permalink)
By the way, Hildegard of Bingen voted with her feet too. She courageously stood up for the disillusioned knight who had returned from the Crusades and had died from disease he had contacted in the Holy Lands.  She had to move all her nuns to another convent that she had to get built, to have some kind of autonomy and some kind of dignity, as she was being abused by the hierarchy and bishops.  So she too had to vote with her feet to keep her integrity and to follow her conscience and the gospel and teachings of Jesus, as the bishop did  not.   Connie
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RE: The Women Apostles, the Women Disciples 2008/08/11 02:15:27 (permalink)
Hmm Jesus talked a lot about the kingdom of heaven, the kingdom of heaven is among you, the kingdlom of heaven is now, going ahead too and preparing a room for us in the father's house, room for all, I  noticed Jesus talks like that.  Eyes to see, ears to hear.  Great mystical language, great inclusive healing and redemption, no judging others, only God can judge Jesus even says he can not judge.  Keeps telling his disciples to be in humble service to each other, to forgive, to not punish or condemn others. He does get angry , righteous anger of justice.  Got a lot of compassion, great  sense of humour, great wit, great problem solver when he can help, very responsive to the needs and requests of people.  Uses discernment, challenges our behaviour, our excuses.  Great sense of fun and enjoys life, great generosity of spirit, gives warm praise to others .
     Connie
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RE: The Women Apostles, the Women Disciples 2008/08/11 07:22:03 (permalink)

Sad thing for those youngsters at your church.  Bad lesson #1 was the moronic priest who refused baptism.  Bad lesson #2 was the catechism teacher who refused an apology.  Neither really appear to me to be modelling christian virtue. #1 focused on show. #2 focused on personal pride.

if you don't see that yur called to here or part of the solution, does your theology support any belief in redemption? 

The Church owes me no apology.  I personally feel that the Church owes all of its daughters to be treated with respect befitting daughters of God, as they are indeed daughters of God, as men are sons of God.  I also personally feel that the Church owes all of its children a model of functional relationship between men and women upheld as the will of God rather than the Roman legal code upheld as the will of God.  The pope says that is quite impossible and that the matter is not to be discussed within the Church, which he is quite entitled to proclaim, and professed Catholics are duty bound to respect his decision as the supreme pontiff and head of the Church.  I believe in that.   The pope drew a line in the sand, he is perfectly entitled to draw that line in the sand, and I respect that line in the sand and will not cross it for any reason.  I speak of the position of women and children in the Church often because I am no longer a member of the Church duty bound to respect and uphold its laws and teachings. I do not present my children the confusing hypocrisy of professing belief in the laws and teachings of the Church while simultaneously personally disdaining the laws and teachings of the Church.  I do not understand how parents can, in good conscience, present their children the hypocrisy of insisting they are and must be Catholic while simultaneously disregarding the laws and teachings of the Church, while simultaneously insisting the Church needs to change its laws and teachings, but that they somehow are expecting their children both to follow those teachings while attempting to convince those in authority that they need to change those teachings, and others not in authority that they must be misinformed if they don't feel the need to protest.  It's no way to live; it's just too crazy.
 
Do I believe in redemption?  Absolutely.  But redemption has a price, and the price of redemption is change. 
 
Am I part of the solution?  I am the foil (perhaps you'd agree also the fool) who goaded/challenged/incited or otherwise somehow inspired you to speak your mind, and speaking your mind on the matter is part of the solution.  You're probably right, you know, I'm not a model of Christian virtue.  I think the Vatican has made it truly impossible for any woman to be any sort of "model of Christian virtue."  Seriously.  The "model of Christian virtue" that the Church presents to women is a physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual impossibility called virgin motherhood.  I think it is a terrible violation of the mother of Christ that the Romans erased her other documented and blessed children away from her in the name of having Christ fit the Roman legal requirements of being a Roman god; it is also a mental, emotional and spiritual violation of all Christian mothers on the face of the earth to have done so.  It's an incredibly sad thing from the point of view of a mother.
 
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RE: The Women Apostles, the Women Disciples 2008/08/11 13:51:48 (permalink)
Wow!  Woman Who Votes With Her Feet. 
 
 You bring up an incredibiliy important fact, so very important.  The Vatican have tried to wipe out, erase the other children the real Mary, Mother of Jesus had.  It is truly awful of the Curia and Popes to do that.  You remind us what they have really done to the Mother of Jesus and to women and girls.
 
A genocide of the siblings of Jesus, taking her other children and wiping them out , as you say, to fit the definition of a Roman god.  Jesus did have brothers and sisters, the scripture refers to them in precise language, and brother James headed up the church in Jerusalem,  James the Just, James the Righteous, till he too was martyred.
 
The Vatican acts like girls and women are never redeemed by Jesus, only men are 'godlike', only men or boys  can touch the eucharist or chalice or even clean the chalice, according to another recent reissue by the pope that no girl or woman can clean the chalice, or say the homily or really be at the altar. 
 
The Vatican says women are 'passive' "church", perpetual Church as if men, boys  and clergy and Pope are NOT Church but 'gods', Jesuses, that girls and women can never be according to Vatican.  No the Pope, the clergy and boys are really Church too and the clergy and men and boys are not gods,  they are when they are ordained, to serve God, not be god, 
 
 That is their arrogant prideful mistake to see males as God, and pretend women are unredeemed forever and not part of God. 
 
 Jesus called himself "widow", "BakerWoman, Making the Bread of Life.", "Mother Hen,  Gathering Her Chicks Under Her Wing."  Clearly Jesus saw the female, the Amma, in God as well as the male, the Abba of God.  Women and girls are part of god as much as boys and men are.  Both ought to be ordained, women and men.  C
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RE: The Women Apostles, the Women Disciples 2008/08/11 14:40:16 (permalink)
Woman Who Votes How beautifully you express the great sin the Vatican has done to Blessed Mary, Mother of Jesus and to all women.  They have killed, wiped out her other daughters and sons.  They have silenced and murdered her other children just to make her unreal, unwomanly, remote and too special to be a real woman and mother.  To make her an unworldly model of a 'woman' no real woman or mother can ever be.  And they hold her up as the only 'good' woman and the only woman at the pentacost--nonsense--Jesus invited all the women he knew to attend his gatherings, look how the women are there at the meals to anoint him!  The women are there, not just very special and very otherworldy Mary. 
 
 Mary is also a real mother, a mother of daughters and sons too, a mother who worries about the safety of Jesus as she stands with his sisters and brothers and warns him.  She is  not meek and silent. She asks God lots of sensible questions before she independently says yes to becoming the mother of Jesus.  She does  not first ask her fiancee, Joseph, or her father,, Zacchara (spelling!).  She insists Jesus does his first public miracle at Cana wedding and won't take no for an answer.  This lady, this real mother, is not meek and  not silent at all.  The Vatican has done her in, hurt her and all women, pretending she is so 'otherwordly', 'meek, 'silent' 'unthinking' 'passive' 'perpetually virginal',  She is still Holy, still Blessed and wonderful even when she is the mother of many sisters and brothers of Jesus.  She is still Virgin Mary because she is the mother of the very divine and also very human Jesus.  That does not change.  With God nothing is impossible!    Beverly
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RE: The Women Apostles, the Women Disciples 2008/08/12 00:45:59 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: maz

ORIGINAL: Guest


ORIGINAL: Guest


I know there were more than 12...I did say the twelve 'foundation' apostles.
This is something that is thrown against us [that they were male] and needs studying.


So what? They were also all Jews. If we are to be restricted by gender, then what about nationality? Perhaps we should only have Jews ordained. Or perhaps there should only be 12 priests in the whole world.

Why just pick on gender, unless of course you want to follow a tradition of oppression and discrimination against women.


you know...there is just no need for this aggression against me.
Sorry, but you are not reading properly and assuming badly.
I am very disappointed as we are on the same 'side' - you have no need to be angry with me.
please could you sign your posts with a nickname so I know which 'Guest' I am responding to?
Thanks.


 
 
I am not angry with you. I have read many of your posts. This was the only one to which I have responded.
 
Yes, I can tell from your posts that you are in favor of women’s ordination. My remarks were addressed to the statement that seemed to imply that the gender of the apostles required more study.
 
For me the significance of the 12 is clear. It is to this point that I was responding.
 
Please be assured no hostility towards you was intended in my reply. This is an emotionally charged issue; so much so that it does seem at times that this web site is not for the faint of heart.
 
I am sorry to learn of your illness. I pray God will restore your health and grant you every blessing and happiness.  
 
Peace.
 
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RE: The Women Apostles, the Women Disciples 2008/08/12 02:49:50 (permalink)
This is an emotionally charged issue; so much so that it does seem at times that this web site is not for the faint of heart.

 
Dealing with these challenges puts peacemaking skills to the test that's for sure.  Or it at least gives one appreciation of how difficult being a peacemaker can be.  There is immaturity on the part of the heirarchy about women.  It is unfortunate that some seem to feel that facing that immaturity gives one licence to respond immaturely. 
 
It doesn't.
 
Immaturity + Immaturity does not add up to maturity.  Yet some seem to think this is so.  True leaders shine in times like these.  And they're not necessarily the ones who have 'leader' stamped on their cap.
 
 
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RE: The Women Apostles, the Women Disciples 2008/08/12 04:03:31 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: Guest

This is an emotionally charged issue; so much so that it does seem at times that this web site is not for the faint of heart.


Dealing with these challenges puts peacemaking skills to the test that's for sure.  Or it at least gives one appreciation of how difficult being a peacemaker can be.  There is immaturity on the part of the heirarchy about women.  It is unfortunate that some seem to feel that facing that immaturity gives one licence to respond immaturely. 

It doesn't.

Immaturity + Immaturity does not add up to maturity.  Yet some seem to think this is so.  True leaders shine in times like these.  And they're not necessarily the ones who have 'leader' stamped on their cap.



I don't agree that it is necessarily immaturity. Sometimes it is misunderstanding or just a propensity to easily take offense. Some of us have thicker skin than others. I am not advocating being vicious or making personal attacks against others but one must also realize that you cannot have effective debate if you are walking on eggshells. 
 
There are those who come to vent, insult, or ridicule, and others who wish to engage in real dialog. Often one can tell the difference without too much effort.
 
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RE: The Women Apostles, the Women Disciples 2008/08/12 23:32:23 (permalink)
!2 Tribes of Israel 12 Male Apostles Lists Change,  Names Different. Women Apostles From Beginning Too of Jesus's Time On Earth
 
I have been looking through this and it's quite interesting.  I like how it is shown that the 12 male apostles are not the same, bible chapter to chapter. It sure does change like the person said.  They were right.  One list has 2 Judas's , 2 of them, and no other list has 2 of that same name, plus it also has Mark who is not listed anywhere else. I started reading the books of Jude.  It is beautiful.  Is that why they recently found the Gospel of Judas, in a Egyptian Christian's tomb, because Judas may not have been bad after all?  Anyway, the book of Jude has beautiful passages in it.
Then one list has Nathanael and he is not on any other list. I forget the other discrepancy in the male apostles and disciples names.  
 
     So , is it just to get across the "12 Jewish Tribes" Idea, all Kosher with Jesus idea? Anyway, Jesus got right into spreading his message beyond Israel, even before he was crucified.  They went into Samaria.  Plus the women are there, and doing real apostle work from the beginning.  The Samaritan woman is the apostle to the Gentiles, telling them about the Messiah.  Is that the first time Jesus declares he is the Messiah? He tells her!  Great,  I think he tells a woman first and then is pleased she is teaching others about it, doing a better job than the guys, so says Jesus!
I did not know the names in the male disciples (apostles) change from bible book to book.  I say a big thank you to the research people do.    Beverly
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RE: The Women Apostles, the Women Disciples 2008/08/14 11:43:39 (permalink)
So Maz, what do you think now of the way the male apostles names are not consistent, synoptic gospel to gospel? The 12 male sure starts to look like device to give Jewsih legitamacy to the early movement, and quickly Jesus is moving out of restricting it to just Israel, even while Jesus is alive on earth.  Remember he first said he would not go to Samaria and he would only minister to and heal Jews then he respons to Gentiles too and goes beyond Israel.   The meaning of the word apostle too and how the disciples are also apostles early on too, including the women disciples  as apostles too,  and that women apostalized too while Jesus was alive on earth too, prior to his Crucifixion and Resurrection?  All is new in Jesus.
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RE: The Women Apostles, the Women Disciples 2008/08/14 13:13:38 (permalink)
That is so fascinating.  That gives even greater credence to the necessity for women as priests and deacons.  Women are apostles just as men are, from the start too.  Again, there is no reason to stop women from being ordained, according to the real tradition, real history  of the church and  the scripture of the New Testament., women apostles have reall Apostolic Succession, keys to kingdom  of God, too.
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RE: The Women Apostles, the Women Disciples 2008/09/22 04:13:41 (permalink)
It is really interesting that the ""twelve male apostles"" listed keeps changing bible text to bible text.  So much for the ""neverchanging male""" apostleship stuff when the names keep changing.
 
It just confirms that early on that number twelve gave great credence to the Jewishness and twelve tribalism when the Jesus movement began.  Was it  "twelve" forever?  No, more and more apostles were called and women too, and from the beginning in Galilee.
 
One list has Nathaniel and no other list does.  One list has two Judases, and no other list does.  One list names Mark, leaves out others, and no other list names Mark.
 
Clearly there is no ""authority"" to these lists, they vary so much. The ""twelve males"" point is not  that important to Jesus because he went out of Israel and to the Gentiles, and to Samaria too.  The world is very fortunalte that he did. 
 
Twelve tribalism was not what Jesus  was all about or God's plan and neither was limiting apostleship to just males.
Why?  Because Jesus immediately made Women his apostles, Mary of Magdala and others  and Junia and others too.
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RE: The Women Apostles, the Women Disciples 2008/11/21 02:44:26 (permalink)
Today, November 21 in the Eastern Rite Churches is celebrated the Entrance of Theotokos into the Temple
 


According to the tradition of the Church, the Theotokos was brought to the Temple at three years of age, where she was consecrated to God and spent her days until she was fourteen or fifteen years old; and then, as a mature maiden, by the common counsel of the priests (since her parents had reposed some three years before), she was betrothed to Joseph.

Apolytikion in the Fourth Tone

Today is the prelude of God's pleasure and the proclamation of man's salvation. The Virgin is clearly made manifest in the temple of God and foretells Christ to all. Let us also cry out to her with mighty voice, "Hail, fulfillment of the Creator's dispensation."
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RE: The Women Apostles, the Women Disciples 2008/11/21 02:45:05 (permalink)
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
For more about this feast day, see:
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RE: The Women Apostles, the Women Disciples 2008/11/21 02:45:33 (permalink)
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
In the Latin rite, the feast is known as The Presentation of Mary.
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RE: The Women Apostles, the Women Disciples 2008/11/21 02:46:21 (permalink)
 
 
Dear friends,

Those who are new among us might not realise what the role Mary plays in the case for women priests.  Though today the Vatican maintains that she was not a priest, throughout the centuries the faithful including men in Church leadership have had cherished a devotion to her as a priest.  She has been understood as the first priest after Christ.  Through their 'Catholic sense,' the faithful have intuitively understood that she shares in Jesus’ priesthood more than any other person. Implicitly the devotion contains the strong but usually unspoken conviction that though a woman, Mary could easily have been ordained a priest -- just as much as any man. There were times throughout history that this conviction was expressed explicitly in the Church.

For more about this, I invite you to browse through:

with love and blessings,
 
~Sophie~
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