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RE: The Women Apostles, the Women Disciples 2007/06/01 06:25:10 (permalink)
  Lots of women are apostles and Paul and Jesus praised these women!
 
  Not just 12, lots lots more than that!
 
   Holy Mother Of Pearl, the women should all ready be allowed to be priests .  Janet
 
   
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RE: The Women Apostles, the Women Disciples 2007/06/01 13:29:43 (permalink)
Dear Sophie,

Please extend my sincere thanks to Dr. Wijngaards for providing information on this and other questions.

I was sorry to learn that he felt it necessary to resign from the priesthood, but in my opinion he is a true priest in the Roman Catholic Church. I greatly admire his integrity.

May God bless him and you also for your wonderful work.



Dear friend,

Thank you~ It is both reassuring and gratifying to receive your feedback!  I am grateful for the opportunity to serve and it is good to know that we are helping.
Your statement about Dr. Wijngaards could not have been better said.   I will be sure he sees your message!

with love, blessings, and gratefulness for your presence here,
~Sophie~
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RE: The Women Apostles, the Women Disciples 2007/06/01 13:40:30 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: Guest

  "Walked with us  during all  the time... witness to his resurrection"

   Awesome!!!   Women totally fit the definition:  Women followed Jesus from Gaillea and ministered to him by their own resources   and  women witnessed Jesus's Resurrection...   without Mary Magdalene  the men would not have known Jesus resurrected.

    A woman,  Mary Magdalene, witnessed the resurrection, the crucifixion, walked with Jesus during all his minstry and provided for the disciples out of her resources.

     Women too are disciples and apostles!   Not just men and More than 12!  12 is a Jewish tribal number however Jesus went beyond the tribes of Israel to the Gentile world. 

     Time to pay attention to the New Testament.


    Of 28 people Paul praises 10 are women:

    Prisca, Junia, Syntyche, Tryponemea, Tryphorea, Nino, Eudonia, Eunice, Lois, Lydia, then there are Salome, Mary Magdalene, Thecla, Joanna, Susanna, Mother Mary.  Are there indeed More Women apostles than men?    Connie

    THANK YOU DR. WIJNGAARDS  for your wonderful  help!

 
Hello Connie,
 
Brilliant work!   The many women apostles show that women were drawn to Christ's ministry in the early Church and that He showed high regard for and confidence in their skills.   What is your sense about the average Catholic's knowledge about women's apostleship in the early Church?  Does more awareness raising work need to be done? 
 
And do you have a sense about how women apostles were received by the early Church?  Do you think the fact that there were successful women apostles shows that the average person was open to the idea of women's leadership? What is your take on this?
 
With love and blessings,
~Sophie~
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RE: The Women Apostles, the Women Disciples 2007/06/01 14:24:31 (permalink)
  The Early Church people had admiration for women just like our founder, Jesus. It also had infighting and jealousy and some misogynist people.  Peter  and others had to be admonished about this, and the male disciples kept asking about power and prestige in the new Kingdom of God and Jesus had to keep showing them it is all about service, be a servant of God, not power, prestige, fancy vestments (Jesus washed disciples feet to drive home this point).  The male disciples were thick as posts about that servant for God aspect. 
   Women led churches, were elders,  were deacons, were prophets, baptizers, missionaries and did all what we call now "priestly" tasks. Paul talks about them prophesizing and speaking in assembly and praises them. This is Paul endorsing women as prophets and preachers in church. He praises women leaders, deacons, missionaries, preachers, "fellow workers and apostles in Christ"  Resounding endorsement of women in church by Paul!
    The archelogical evidence supports this too and so does Paul's writings of the New Testament.
    Theologians show us, historians and archeologists show us women were  equal to men and accepted by most however Paul had to keep affirming their worth as some resisted women due to culture and jealousy and infighting and that also shows men arguing too and fighting over churches too in the New Testament.
    Dr. Wijngaards and B. Ehrman and many other theologians show us prohibition against women were pagan Roman Law and not from Jesus or God. 
     Ehrman also shows                       ;
 
        the verses that prohibit women from church preaching  and the verses that claim women must be silent, submissive to men due to Eve's  supposed "sin" are contradictory and  scribal inserts/alterations that can not be attributed to Paul and is therefore false. 
 
      Eve Was Framed  sounds like a wonderful book which was written by one of our illustrious patrons. I want to read that book!    Greetings from Connie  and my kids say hi too!  My husband thinks Roman Catholic church is crazy wrong to exclude women from priesthood.
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RE: The Women Apostles, the Women Disciples 2007/06/02 16:43:12 (permalink)
  The Early Church had women doing all minstry duties because that is what Jesus did.
    The True Tradition of Women and Men as Equal "Workers in Christ"--Paul's Term, Early Church.
    Ladies anointed Jesus and Jesus defended them against critics.
 
    Ladies preached Jesus's Good News to the men and women, and Jesus  and Paul approved!
 
    Mary Magdalene, Samaritan Woman, Phoebe, Junia, Thecla, Syntyche, Lydia, Eunice, Eudoia, Lois,  plus more.
 
    Ladies prophesisized, preached, led churches.
 
    Paul does mention squabbling and Jesus had to remind the disciples it is all about being "'humble servants of God".
 
     That is our human failings to squabble and get derailed and then get back on track. 
 
      Women were appreciated and commissioned by Jesus, so it is authentic tradition and doctrine to maintain what Jesus started.  Yes, women were not pushed aside untill much later.  That is the sin, to exclude what Jesus validated: women as Jesus's ministers along with men.  Our church has been derailed a long time by barring women from priesthood.
 
       Do you see how Early Church had workers in Christ as both men and women- church Curia in Rome have done a lot of harm to our church by excluding Jesus's women!!!!
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RE: The Women Apostles, the Women Disciples 2007/06/02 23:05:56 (permalink)
On the thread that deals with "Internalized Oppression" Connie asked me to post something here. (I was writing as a guest without signing a name and it gets confusing to relate to which individual that may be writing.) So, here is what I posted in speaking of working "within the church":

The process is within us as the Body of Christ.

I've chosen the name Nympha to correspond here. Please note:

"Give greetings to the brothers in Laodicea and to Nympha and to the church in her house".
(Colossians 4:15)

The reference, to me, speaks very well of what we are talking about here. The church is within us, so therefore where the Spirit dwells - in my house.

Let us reclaim the beauty of the early church!

St. Nympha, pray for us!
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RE: The Women Apostles, the Women Disciples 2007/06/02 23:49:13 (permalink)
   Women Apostles, Women Disciples of Jesus 
 
    Mary Magdalene
    Salome
     Mary of Bethany
     Martha
     Joanna
     Samaritan Woman
     Phoebe
     Priscilla
      Apphia
      Nympha
      Eudoai
      Eunice
      Lois
      Persis
      Thecla
       Syntyche
       Nino
       Lydia
       Julia
       Junia
       Olympus
       Tryphaena
       Tryphosa
       Susanna                 
        24     Women Apostles, Women Disciples   Twice times Twelve
 Paul says "May their names be written in the Book of Life!" 
 May the women apostles, women disciples  be in Catholic Lectionary and Vatican books too as Jesus chose women too.
 
 
 
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RE: The Women Apostles, the Women Disciples 2007/06/03 16:37:44 (permalink)
   www.futurechurch.org     is a great site  for  information about how to help our church.
 
    Sophie put news up about this site.
 
     Look at Matthew 26:6-13   where a woman anoints the head of Jesus.
 
 www.futurechurch.org      has a lot   of great articles on Women In Church,  Jesus and Women, Women in The Gospels, Women in the Gentile World, Women in the Lectionary--also in this www.womenpriests.org    by Sr. Ruth Fox.
 
    Cleveland Sisters of Joseph, theologian Christine Schenk  has some wonderful articles presented too on this web site about Women Apostles, Women Disciples.    from  Janet
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RE: The Women Apostles, the Women Disciples 2007/06/03 21:29:20 (permalink)
It’s funny but I was thinking of St. Veronica just yesterday. It is odd because she is a saint that I have never really thought about. Coincidentally I came across an article while browsing the “futurechurch” web site. Thanks Janet, for providing the link.
 
Anyway I found the significance of her name to be quite beautiful.
 
 
                        From: Christine Schenk, csj
St. Veronica’s story is not as biblically well founded. Nonetheless, I think she could become a new patron for women priests. The Vatican bases its opposition to female ordination on lack of “iconic resemblance” to the male person of Jesus. (Of course this has never stopped us from baptizing women into the Body of Christ...a schizophrenic situation for Catholic women if ever there was one).
The story of Veronica comes from an early Christian legend in which a woman from Jerusalem wipes the face of Jesus with her veil while he struggles under the weight of the cross to Calvary. Her veil is miraculously imprinted with an image of Christ’s face. The intriguing part of the story lies in the derivation of the woman’s name. “Veronica” means literally: “true icon.”
One wonders if this much beloved story does not bear its own mute yet subversive testimony to women’s self understanding through the centuries that we are “true icons” of Christ despite the blindness and lack of spiritual vision of some of our brothers.
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RE: The Women Apostles, the Women Disciples 2007/06/09 17:03:10 (permalink)
Dear friends,

Approaching on the horizon is the feast day of Mary the Magdalene July 22. In many parts of the world, her feast day has become one of focused celebration for advocates of women's priesthood.

I will provide some information as to how that day is celebrated in some places (you might want to initiate a celebration where you live)  In the meantime, I point out a section dedicated to Mary M in our website.  Our resident expert about Mary Magdalene, Sr. Theresia Saers has developed an extensive collection of information about the first post-resurrection apostle.  Access to our collection is through this link: http://www.womenpriests.org/magdala/magd_ovr.asp



Mary Magdalene: Apostle to the Apostles

By way of some initial background about Mary Magdalene, we know that the Gospels mention three women who played a role in Jesus’ life:
  • Mary of Magdala, who was a disciple of Jesus, who was present at the crucifixion and who visited the empty tomb.
  • Mary who lived in Bethany, sister of Lazarus and Martha. She listened to Jesus’ teaching and anointed his feet with ointment two days before his Passion.
  • the repentant woman in Simon’s house (Lk 7,36-50).

Authors are divided on the question whether these women were, in fact, identical, with different strands of oral tradition retaining various aspects of the same woman disciple.

But Christian imagination took a firm line. In the course of time, perhaps under influence of Gregory the Great’s writings, the two Marys and the repentant woman were assumed to be one and the same person: St. Mary Magdalen. In later tradition, the three personalities simply became one.

You can access the Gospel texts  through this link.  A discussion about the identity question related to Mary Magdalene is here: One Mary, Two or Three?

Much more to follow!  If you have any questions, please let me know.

with love and blessings,
~Sophie~
post edited by Sophie - 2007/06/11 04:04:37
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RE: The Women Apostles, the Women Disciples 2007/06/18 13:07:38 (permalink)
No women apostles therefore no women priests?
 
The history of the ones who were dominated is lost until another time when someone is willing to research and present a more accurate picture of the historical event, the times, the people -- covering more perspectives than just the dominant one.
 
Thanks be to God for the work that's being done.  As women, we are only starting to learn our true story in the Church.
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RE: The Women Apostles, the Women Disciples 2007/06/23 21:22:04 (permalink)
  Yes there are plenty  many  many many women apostles  and women disciples.
 
  There is no reason to exclude women from priesthood.
 
  
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RE: The Women Apostles, The Women Disciples 2007/06/24 19:07:49 (permalink)
  1 Corinthians 10:17
 
     "Because the loaf of bread is one, we, many though we are, are one body , for we all partake of the one loaf." 
  
    We are one as Jesus and God are one, then God's plan of salvation will be fulfilled and God's kingdom will have  "come on earth as it is in heaven." Jesus came to break down barriers and make the two into one (Eph. 2:14) . We dwell inone (Psalm 133:1).
     Our unity is God's plan, our respect and dignity of all, including women is essential.  Ordain women too.
      Women Apostles like Junia and Mary Magdalene remind us how Jesus accepted, trusted and believed in the goodness of women.
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RE: The Women Apostles, the Women Disciples 2007/06/25 00:46:50 (permalink)
News for our friends in Canada:

MONTREAL MADELEINE/MAGDALENE FESTIVAL
CELEBRATE  WOMEN IN MINISTRY on the Feast of
MARY OF MAGDALA

 


Icon by Brother Robert Lentz, ofm*

Sunday  July 22, 2007
6-8 pm/ 1800-2000
TERRA NOVA CENTRE
298 BROOKHAVEN, DORVAL
[Corner Carson] WEST ISLAND, MONTREAL
17 blocks west of Dorval Avenue along Carson Avenue
[Bus 203 from Dorval Circle]
One block north of Lakeshore Drive

6:00 pm/1800: Meet and Greet

INVITED PARTICIPANTS:
  • Female  Cantors
  • Chanters
  • Lectors
  • Homilists
  • Sacramental Servers
  • Chaplains
  • Baptismal/Wedding/Funeral Presiders
  • End-of Life Care Ministers
  • Spiritual Midwives
  • Friends of Widows and/orDuplessis Orphans
  • AIDS survivors and friends
  • Friends of the Earth and of Women/Youth abuse survivors
  • Eco-sexually diverse communities

6:45 /1845 Liturgy: CELEBRATING WOMEN IN MINISTRY
“CALLED BY NAME”

  • French translations available

7:30/1930: Refreshments/social
Suggested donation: $5.00 or PWYC
Email: monkbags4aids@hotmail.com
Supported by: www.futurechurch.org

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

*This icon was written by Brother Robert Lentz, ofm.

"According to the ancient tradition of the East, Mary Magdalene was a wealthy woman from whom Christ expelled seven demons. During the three years of Jesus’ ministry she helped support Him and His other disciples with her money. When almost everyone else fled, she stayed with Him at the cross. On Easter morning she was the first to bear witness to His resurrection. She is called "Equal to the Apostles".

The Eastern tradition tells us that after the Ascension she journeyed to Rome where she was admitted to the court of Tiberius Caesar because of her high social standing. After describing how poorly Pilate had administered justice at Jesus’ trial, she told Caesar that Jesus had risen from the dead. To help explain His resurrection she picked up an egg from the dinner table. Caesar responded that a human being could no more rise from the dead than the egg in her hand turn red. The egg turned red immediately...
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RE: The Women Apostles, the Women Disciples 2007/07/04 18:52:54 (permalink)
  Mary was the original apostle-the one commissioned to tell the good news of Christ's resurrection-  this is found in the books of the New Testament.  In the Gospel of Mark, it is Mary Magdalene along with Mary the mother of James, and Salome who come to the tomb on the third day , who  learn from a young man there that Jesus has been raised, and are told then to go tell the disciples. In the later account of Matthew , Mary and the other Mary not only learn of Jesus's resurrection from an angel at the tomb but are also instructed to tell the others. Jesus himself appears to the women and commissions them to "tell my brothers (the men disciples) to go to Galilee; and they will see me there (Matthew 28:11)". The women fufilled their commission for all of us.  In the last New Testament Gospel written, John, Mary herself is singled out as the first to see Jesus raised from the dead. According to this account Mary comes alone to the tomb, finds it empty, Jesus suddenly appears to her. He calls her by name and she recognizes him, calling him rabbouni---"teacher"----  Jesus commissions her to tell the disciples that he is about to ascend to heaven, and she does as she is told. Mary is the first to proclaim the Resurrected Jesus so Mary Magdalene is the first Apostle of Christianity.
     Because of the Revelation given to her, Mary Magdalene was the one who started Christianity.
 
     Source: Peter, Paul and Mary Magdalene, The Followers of Jesus in History and Testament, Oxford University Press, 2006.
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RE: The Women Apostles, the Women Disciples 2007/07/06 05:57:22 (permalink)
If you are in the Houston, Texas area, this may be of interest to you!

Mary Magdalene Feast Day
Christ Church Episcopal Cathedral
1117 Texas Avenue
Houston, Texas
Join Brigid's Place in their annual celebration of the Feast Day of Mary Magdalene, Sunday, July 22, 2007.
  • Worship in the Cathedral at 6 p.m.
  • Lecture and reception in the Great Hall at 7 p.m.

Cost: $20 for lecture/reception

Topic: Where Were the Women?  What the Gospel of Mary Tells Us
 
Who was Mary Magdalene, really? A prostitute? A loyal disciple? Jesus' wife? Dr. April DeConick's lecture will explore these themes and more as it unpacks the theology of the Gospel of Mary, a Gnostic "midrash" gospel. Mary emerges from the text as an early Gnostic church leader administering the eucharist and presenting a homily on its benefits, which include a mystical transfiguration and ascent to God.

Homilist and Lecturer: April DeConick recently joined the Rice University Religious Studies faculty as Isla Carroll and Percy E. Turner Professor of Biblical Studies. Dr. DeConick is an historian of early Jewish and Christian thought, fascinated by the many ways the Jesus tradition emerges across the literature. She has a deep love for exploring the various expressions of early mysticism, including the spirituality of classic Gnostic thinkers. She is the author of:


If you have the chance to attend, please come back and share!

~S~
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RE: The Women Apostles, the Women Disciples 2007/07/06 19:57:28 (permalink)
   Thank you for posting about the Mary Magdalene Feast Day lecture with Professor of Biblical Studies April DeConick and thank you for listing her books.  I hope someone could please share her insights about Mary Magdalene.  Good bless from Connie
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RE: The Women Apostles, the Women Disciples 2007/07/09 03:10:59 (permalink)
Dear friends,

Fast approaching on the horizon-- July 22 -- is the feast day of Mary Magdalen, apostle to the apostles and close friend of Christ's.  Our resident Magdalen expert, Sister Theresia Saers points out that it is not difficult to see why Mary is so popular in our time: She captures the imagination. She offers women a model of feminine discipleship and ministry. In the context of women's ordination, she functions as a heroic counter-figure.




Sister Theresia recommends Dr. Esther deBoer's Did He Love Her More Than Us? as a route to learn about the latest studies on the Magdalen.  Through an unofficial translation by Theresia Saers of the final chapter of de Boer's book on early christian texts about Mary Magdalen and women in general (the Dutch book with the title De geliefde discipel has been published in 2006 by Meinema and will be published in English by Continuum International in 2007) we join de Boer in looking at:
  • various descriptions of Mary Magdalen
  • general statements about her and the appeal to scripture
  • superiority, rivalry, sexuality, and shame
  • a historically sound description of Mary Magdalen
  • her significance for Christian faith

de Boer writes:  "The historically sound image of Mary Magdalen does not bear out traditional faith and existing rite, as does the classic one but contradicts it...the historically sound image of Mary Magdalen is not about obedience but about inner certitude.  It is no longer about sitting wordless at the feet of the Lord but about beginning to speak and act self-reliantly. Sin, penance and grace are not the central issue in this Mary Magdalen, but the confusion of the world and the liberation from this confusion, made possible by the Redemptor. It is not self chastisement which takes pride of place, but joy. Not only the suffering of the Lord but also his greatness. Not the belief in dogmas, but the inner will to seek the Lord, to find him and to follow him."

A copy of her article is available here: Dr. Esther A. de Boer.  Enjoy! If you have any questions, please let me know!
 
with love and blessings,
~Sophie~
post edited by Sophie - 2007/07/09 15:04:30
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RE: The Women Apostles, the Women Disciples 2007/07/09 03:18:46 (permalink)
Dear friends,

Throughout the centuries, Mary Magdalen has been an inspiration for women. Our resident expert, Sister Theresia Saers has compiled a beautiful 15 day meditation about her.  It's complete version is available here: Picture Meditations on Mary Magdalen.  Please enjoy!
 
with love and blessings,
~Sophie~

Day One: A Woman with Spirit


Medieval painting depicting Mary of Magdala.
Click here or on the picture for an enlargement.

Studying the picture
This medieval altar panel depicts the mature Mary of Magdala. The inscription on the scroll says that she had been a sinner, but is now a saint. In the background we see four scenes which form part of Mary’s traditional story:
  • a repentant Mary dries Jesus’s feet with her hair (top left);
  • Jesus raises Mary’s brother Lazarus from the tomb (top right);
  • Mary meets Jesus after his resurrection (bottom left);
  • Mary preaches the Good News (bottom right).

Through the centuries Mary of Magdala has been an inspiration to women.

Reflection

When people hear the name Mary of Magdala, the first image that flashes across their inner eye will probably be the woman of the anointing. A woman generous with love. Generous with gratitude. An endearing and beautiful image . . . But is this all there was to Mary of Magdala?

Luke’s gospel suggests twice that Mary had a sinful past. Whatever that past, - and who of us has a completely clean record? – her actions after her first meeting with Jesus point to a spirited and proud person, one who is able to hold her own. This is a woman who does not run away when the authorities clamp down on Jesus and his followers. She follows him all the way to Calvary and is found standing beneath the cross. She is the prototype of a leader. It is evident from the gospels that she must have been able to organise a group of women to join her when she decided to follow this Rabbi Jesus. All four gospels are unanimous in pointing out how great her faith was, her solidarity with Jesus, and her readiness to be his witness.
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RE: The Women Apostles, the Women Disciples 2007/07/10 03:51:21 (permalink)
Talking to Church Authorities!
Mary of Magdala, Meditation Day Two
 
12th Century St Albani-Psalter. Originally
n St. Alban’s, England, nowadays
in St. Godehard in Hildesheim, Germany.
Click here or on the picture for an enlargement
 
Studying the Picture
 
In this picture a monk tells us that the Church owes the story of the Resurrection to, of all people, Mary of Magdala. This picture is full of significance: the apostles, lleaders of the Church, learn the news of the Resurrection from Mary of Magdala. She brings it to them. She knows something the officials in the Church have as yet no knowledge of. It is also possible that the picture alludes to the legend according to which, when the apostles doubted Jesus’ resurrection, Mary of Magdala preached the Gospel to them and restored their faith.

The narrative in this picture differs from that in Luke (24,11). There the apostles were gathered in an upper room with closed doors, out of fear of the authorities in Jerusalem. Then they thought the story nonsensical.. Mary makes the gesture of someone who has something to tell (the finger). She speaks with authority and Peter reacts with the gesture for reception/ listening or even acclamation: an open hand. The books are the usual attributes for apostles. The fact that Peter caries a book only, not the keys, has become rare at the time this work of art was made. The others are very close together under the small dome, but they are all very attentive, not one of them is looking away: so their attitude is not one of denial but of reception, like that of Peter, their leader.

Although the column divides the space into two unequal halves, the artist nevertheless manages to have balance in the picture. The woman in this case has something the male disciples have not: authority derived from the fact that she has witnessed the resurrection and, for that matter, the crucifixion of Jesus.

Reflection

I wonder whether women today dare to testify to church leaders, as Mary of Magdala did.

Even when church authorities are unreceptive and carry huge piles of theological literature? Or do we just keep silent, because they wag fingers at us? Women too are baptised in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. When they receive the sacrament of confirmation they too are told, “Receive the Holy Spirit”. And who can contradict the Holy Spirit with impunity?

 
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